« A Woman's Place, In The Church |
Main
| The Passover Supper of the Lord »
Are We Serious About This?
Figuring out a cogent, working viewpoint on women and their roles, that is.
I've come upon a couple of additions to the discussion.
First, from Susan Wise Bauer's blog:
I have a great affection for Westminster and a great respect for its (mostly male) faculty. I find it discouraging, though, that Westminster is still going in circles over the same issues that were troubling the (overwhelmingly male) faculty when I was there fifteen years ago. To wit, What Should Women Be Doing in the Church?
.....Evangelicals generally are very resistant to the idea that their ideas about masculinity and feminity are in any way shaped by their culture; a certain division of gender roles has become, for many American evangelicals, the center of their orthodoxy. (Not the Apostles’ Creed, say, or the Nicene Creed, but, “Do we ordain women?”) Far too many evangelical groups identify themselves, not by their understanding of the resurrection, but by the restrictions they place on women.
There are tremendous fears that lie behind this attitude
....Sometimes discussions about “women in the church” are actually discussions about the reliability of the Bible, and sometimes discussions about the reliability of the Bible are actually discussions about men’s fears of women, and it’s exceedingly difficult to figure out WHICH conversation you’re having at any given time.
She further quotes from John Stackhouse, "“When society was patriarchal, as it was in the New Testament context and as it has been everywhere in the world except in modern society in our day,...." which made me question, "Is modern society not patriarchal?
This is a very pertinent topic for women today, for Christians today. Let's wrestle some of this out.
Secondly, a detour I happened upon was inspired by a comment to Hannah Im's "Submission" post, which led me to Katharine Bushnell . She is described thus, "Katherine began to realize “that woman’s plight was rooted in the fact that the Bible was seen to support the degradation and suppression of women."
This was a woman missionary whose life spanned 1855 – 1946. "She ... added the dimension of educating all women in Biblical languages so that the original intent of controversial passages could be clearly understood."
::UPDATED:: to include Rebecca Groothuis' article, " The Bible and Gender Equality". Illustrates the egalitarian view in a very balanced way.
I'm ready to hear some of your thoughts. Writing on your own blog? Want to comment here? And why are the scholars still going in circles?
Ilona I think it would help to link to Susan wise Bauer's post - which is here.
I have a copy of Katherine Bushnell's God's Word to Women and have read it a few times. Some of it is good but some is very debatable. I don't have time to discuss it all - there's lot of material in it. A quick example - she raises interesting points aout Eve, some are very good, but at the same time is too one-sided in that and misses some fundamental aspects I think.
I am a member of an extremely small congregation and out of necessity I have ended up planning our church's worship service (with the approval and supervision of the pastor) and leading the worship in much of the singing and scripture reading. When I began this undertaking I began praying and studying the topic of the role of women in worship and in the church. When I sought help from our pastor (at the time) the only response to my questions was a joking "As long as your name isn't on the sign out front, you're OK". Funny, but not exactly helpful.
From listening to the various interpretations of others, from one extreme to the other, as I began my own personal study of the subject, I developed two resolves: 1) I could not take the easy route of simply declaring certain passages no longer applicable due to changes in culture and 2) I could not interpret passages outside of their original cultural context. At first glance, it may seem these two resolves are contradictory. But taken together, they said this to me: All of the scriptures pertaining to worship and the role of women are still valid today. They contain core principals that are crucial to understand and apply. However, to really understand these important principals we have to understand the culture in which they were first expressed. The principals are timeless--however, how these principals will be expressed and applied within a given cultural context can vary.
Studying Greek and Hebrew culture, and original meanings of their concepts and words, leads to a more accurate understanding of the principal the writer was trying to communicate and how the original readers of these words understood them. I found a very excellent discussion of how the order of creation was understood to effect the nature of men and women and their interactions in the book Hard Sayings of Paul by Manfred Brauch in the chapter on head covering for women. Understanding the timeless principals that Scripture communicates, principals based on the fundamental nature of things, the created order of the world, allows us a better understanding of the way these principals were applied in the days of early Christianity and how they should be still applied, within our own cultural context.
One thing I forgot to mention is that, without an understanding of the underlying principal behind a certain scriptural command or instruction, one could easily end up complying with the externals and totally miss the intended 'substance' of the original command... like the Pharisees and the Sabbath.
{{Catez}} you will get me to pay more attention to detail yet! Thank you for the specific link- I'll edit that in, it is important. Thank you... is it hard to be patient with my style?
Actually, right now I am more interested in following the thinking in Kevin Giles book that I mentioned in a different place ( off the blog).
I came upon something online that worked off of Bushnell and it was a bit obscure for me. Although, in time, I will be looking more into her writing.
You've done alot to refine my thinking process, already, and this iron sharening iron is what it's all about.
Debra, thank you for this... I do agree with your view and feel that this may be exactly what Catez is seeking to say to me.
I agree with this overall view. I do. In the discussion however, I really want to break through some of the thought barriers that leave us in uneasy detente. Sort of like the way I am finding many seem resigned to say that there is validity to both sides of the questions and sort leave people, such as in your own experience, left with a light comment from a laughing pastor. I have reasons to believe this is unacceptable in our time.
I believe there is something better. I believe we can come to a place of understanding that allows us to make policy and the case for Christianity in our world. It just takes some hammering out of the ideas... but I believe the truth is out there;)
In the discussion however, I really want to break through some of the thought barriers that leave us in uneasy detente. Sort of like the way I am finding many seem resigned to say that there is validity to both sides of the questions and sort leave people, such as in your own experience, left with a light comment from a laughing pastor. I have reasons to believe this is unacceptable in our time.
I believe there is something better. I believe we can come to a place of understanding that allows us to make policy and the case for Christianity in our world. It just takes some hammering out of the ideas... but I believe the truth is out there;)
Well, now you're tackling something even harder than determining the role of women in the church! :-) Now you're talking about how to get people to face a hard issue, tackle the challenge of separating truth from cultural biases and personal preference, wade through all the information and conflicting interpretations, prayerfully tackle all this, come to some conclusion of faith and understanding and have the courage to share that understanding with others and apply it in their lives--often in the face of, sometimes angry, opposition from those who view things differently. Whew!!
If we can all accept the underlying principles of loving God and loving our neighbor we'll be doing good--but how that love works itself out in the details of our day to day living gets complicated real fast. I doubt we will ever have a general consensus on this issue. We would first have to get a consensus on whether or not you can disregard some scripture, on the basis of it being only applicable to the people for whom it was originally written. Then, even among those who agreed you can and among those who agreed that you can't, there would be disputes and differences of interpretation. In addition, due to the differences in individuals and groups, while the underlying principles are applicable to all--there's not a one size fits all answer to how they should be applied.
I think the best we can do is personally pursue truth, apply it in our lives, and speak the truth, in love, to others. As applied to this issue, this means we as women have to make sure that in all our roles we are acting in humility, with faith and a genuine desire for truth, while demonstrating love. We have to constantly pray we don't let our own pride or preferences cloud our thinking. And we have to find a place among like minded believers where we can comfortably fulfill the roles to which we have been called, without causing our brothers or sisters to stumble.
Debra, practically speaking, you are right.
But..
we also ought to raise the bar, and that means starting somewhere, even if it is an online forum with not much hope of consensus.
I act on the premise that we put the thoughts out there and if they have merit it makes a difference in the long run. And practically, how many times are we held up and hesitant in the daily outworking of our faith because we are unsure of how to proceed? Unsure of what God's will is on a matter? The more we learn and seek the answers on these things, the better the road is paved. And that is a good thing I think.
You made some very good points that will come up in the later posts. I think much of the answer is within those "underlying principles " you mention.
Ilona,
I agree with you a 100%...that is why I appreciate this forum and your post on this subject. This is one of the places I go for the information and interaction that helps me to sharpen my understanding--and to share what I have learned from my past seeking.
You are exactly right about the importance of this--especially in helping us proceed with confidence in the 'daily outworking of our faith'. In fact, it was partly from the Internet and from interactions with Believers that I found on-line in the Christian blogosphere that I was able to find the information I needed to settle in my mind, with the faith, the proper extent and bounds of my role as worship director and teacher in my church.
Thank you so much, Ilona, for raising this issue and sharing your insights--and to all those who are contributing to this discussion. It really is helping me to continue in further understanding this issue and in determining my role in the Body of Christ.
