Intellectuelle

I've (twice now) had a debate with a young Jewish pre-Law student who claims that the term Judeo-Christian holds no meaning. At this point I've conceded that it is often abused in modern parlance, but that specifically in the context of Old Testament/Tanakh scholarship, the term applies. There is cross-pollination of study and I would guess experts from both faith traditions read work done by the other "half".

My question for you is two-fold. First what do you think of the term Judeo-Christian? And second, what do you mean when you say that Jews and Christians don't worship the same God? I thought the Jews clung to the first (as Paul would say failed) convenant and Jesus provides the second ... but that the God we worship is the same.

First what do you think of the term Judeo-Christian?

Many people, when referring to "Judeo-Christian" are referring to a set of values, based on the Ten Commandments.

And second, what do you mean when you say that Jews and Christians don't worship the same God?

Christians believe that Christ is the third member of the Trinity. From what I understand, Jews don't recognize the Trinity. They were expecting a Messiah, but not necessarily the Son of God - fully God and fully man. They were looking for a Messiah to rescue the Jewish people from the political world and to restore the Old Covenant, not a Messiah who would leave the political world alone and who would bring Gentiles into the New Covenant.

I'm not sure that's altogether right, but I think I got the main points.

The thought that so-called "Christian" leaders say the same about Muslim is way more disturbing to me.

All three religions, from a textual basis, recognize the same God--the God of Abraham. The PATH and the Source are how the religions differentiate themselves from each other.

Islam: Recognizes God, but the path is not from God.

Law: Recognizes God and from God, but we are unable to execute the agreement

Christ: Recognizes God and from God, He fulfilled the first contract and established the second.

We can only truely WORSHIP the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob through Christ (John 14:6-9)-- rejection of Christ is rejection of God.

I certainly agree that not all religions are the same. It's only by faith in Jesus that we are saved.

But there is only one God. Anyone who claims to worship God, Creator of the world, is worshipping that one God. They may have missed a lot of what it means to worship, they may deny that Jesus is God, but they're still worshipping God in the person of the Father.

Jews who become Christians do not transfer allegiance to a different God. They just recognise that Jesus is the Messiah they have been awaiting. This is what happened with Jesus' disciples, after all, and the Jewish section of the early church.

Muslims who become Christians don't transfer allegiance to a different God either, or not usually. Indeed, the Koran instructs them to read the Bible as a holy book. On conversion they, like Jews, acknowledge Jesus as Messiah and deliverer, and recognise that much of what they learned about God was false. Terrorist Muslims are condemned by Islamic leaders worldwide. They worship their own ideology, not God in any form.

When Paul found the inscription 'to an unknown God' he even took that as referring to God.

It's often said that *all* religions are seeking God - because there's a place for God in every human being. It's only in Christianity that God reached out in Jesus to offer us salvation. So the others who strive for God, without knowing Jesus, will inevitably fail. But it doesn't mean they aren't seeking the same God.

I think if we accepted the three major world religions as worshipping the same God simply because they uphold the Old Testament, we'd have to accept sects and cults of Christianity also--i.e. Mormonism and Jehovah's Witnesses, which even claim to believe in Jesus Christ...except that they interpret his being God's son as making him under God instead of one with Him. And of course Muslims regard Jesus as a prophet. And Jews...well, we all know what they think of Jesus--at least the orthodox ones.

Only Christians worship the triune God of Father, Son and Holy Spirit. And that's not even completely true because within Christianity (even excluding the cults/sects) there has been such watering down in certain denominations that the Biblical God has been stripped of his identity and replaced with a humanistic one that essentially says "all roads lead to Rome."

Btw, Samantha, great post :)

I would say that the Jews definitely worship the same God that we do. Up until the time of Christ, Judaism was the true religion given by God. He has always been a Trinity (even if this was not revealed to Moses or anyone else before the Christian era). So the Jews definitely worshipped the true God before Christ. After Christ, did they stop worshipping God, or start worshipping another God? No. They did not recognise Christ, but they are continuing to worship God as they believe God is. They have incorrect beliefs about His nature and much else, but IMO this is not enough to say they worship a different God.

Loath as I am to say this about the Mohammedans, the same applies to them. They are extremely wrong on a lot of points, and unlike the Jews, they are not practicing a religion directly derived from Mosaic Judaism which was a genuine revelation from God.

After all, if Paul could say to the pagan Athenians that the unknown god whom they worshipped is the same as the God he proclaimed to them, how can I label “worshipping a different god” anyone who worships the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob – no matter how mistaken I believe they are about His nature and His revelation?

But isn't the Christian definition of "God" tied up in the Trinity? We're majorly equivocating if that is true and we insist that Jews worship the same God.

Atlantic, "worship" implies belief in and obedience to--the first part of that is where salvation comes from--the second part is the outgrowth of that. So how can non-Christians "worship" the same God and not be saved?

I think an erroneous understanding of God's nature is the same as not knowing him, and therefore not worshipping him, but a false god.

There’s something weird about saying “the Christian definition of God” that I can’t quite put my finger on. It almost seems to imply we are the ones who define what God is, like a mathematician defining a triangle as a polygon with three sides, and who is then perfectly right to say, “if it hasn’t got three sides, it’s not a triangle”. God isn’t a what that we can define, but a Who. He puts some things into our hearts about Him, and other things He tells us about Himself. What we have is not a definition of God, but some facts about Him. As Christians, our facts about Him are true. Jews and Mohammedans have a few correct facts, but many incorrect ones. This is not enough, IMO, to make it “a different God”.

It’s similar to people’s beliefs about another given person. It’s possible for one person to have correct facts and beliefs about someone, and another person to have some facts right and some wrong about that same someone, with both still meaning the same someone.

There’s something weird about saying “the Christian definition of God” that I can’t quite put my finger on.

How about the "definition of God according to the Christian Bible"

Atlantic, did you see my question?

Laura, that's what I was saying in my first comment.

I don't think that worshipping God is sufficient for salvation, otherwise Mosaic Judaism would have been sufficient.

Sorry, Marla, I'm at work and they keep interrupting me! ;)

Worship literally means "ascribing to something its worth," and when we deny who God is, His very identity, we deny Him his true worth; consequently, we are not truly worshipping God if we do not acknowledge who God is.

The Jews of the Old Covenant worshipped the God that had revealed Himself to them. God's revelation determines, for lack of a better word, God-ness. On this side of the revelation of God's Tri-une nature, we know that God is Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, and to deny that now (not then, for it hadn't been revealed then) is to deny who God is. If you deny who God is, you are not really worshipping Him and whatever god you are worshipping is not the God of revelation.

Saying Jews and Muslims worship the same God as Christians today is like saying the pagans worshipped the same god as the Jews in the Old Testament days. YHWH's revelation of Himself to the patriarchs led them away from the scattered truth, such as it was, that there was something like god to be worshipped. Based on the new revelation from God Himself, the Jews chose to worship the one, true God.
The pagans of course did not. But no Christian I know today says some pagans worshipped the same god as YHWH, just under a different name or with less understanding of who God was.

Bottom-line question: Can you truly worship God and not be heaven-bound?
I'm not saying worship saves us. I'm asking if it's possible for someone unsaved to truly worship God.
I don't think it is.

I'm not sure any of us truly worship God, in all fullness. I don't agree that God's revelation determines Godness, because it has been revealed in stages, whereas God's Godness is absolute and unchanging. I would certainly agree that the less you know of God (and especially if your facts are wrong rather than incomplete), the harder it is to know and love and worship Him.

To go back to the person analogy. Suppose a king - let's call him Arthur - has not been present in person in his country for a long time. Over here, we have a bunch of people who say "King Arthur was probably just a myth, or is dead, and we like democracy better anyway." A second bunch says, "We pledge fealty to King Oberon and Queen Mab instead." A third bunch says, "We're loyal to King Arthur and we follow the constitution he left." A fourth says, "We're loyal to King Arthur, and we've had a new message from King Arthur and he has given us some new information". The third replies, "You have not and he has not".

The third and the fourth group can't both be right. And whoever is in the group that is right is going to have an easier time knowing and following him. But they are both giving their allegiance to King Arthur is a way that the first two groups simply are not.

"But no Christian I know today says some pagans worshipped the same god as YHWH, just under a different name or with less understanding of who God was."

Maybe not today, but Paul said that some Athenians did just that. "For as I passed along, and observed the objects of your worship, I found also an altar with this inscription, 'To an unknown god.' What therefore you worship as unknown [or, in ignorance], this I proclaim to you." Acts 17:23

It is the indwelling of the Holy Spirit by which we truely worship God.
John 4:23
Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks.

John 14:
16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever— 17 the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be[c] in you.

Why would he proclaim to them if they were already worshipping? Just so they'd know God's name?

I agree that none of us worship God entirely correctly. But that is thinking of terms of merit. I'm not saying flawless worship is the only real worship. I'm saying you can't worship God if you don't believe He is who He says He is.

I don't agree that God's revelation determines Godness, because it has been revealed in stages

I don't think I said that, and if I did let me clarify:
God's revelation doesn't determine his Godness. Certainly I agree God has always been Triune!
What I'm saying is that God's revelation tells us as much about God as he wants us to know. In the old covenant, He revealed some and expected his followers to acknowledge that revelation in their worship. In the new covenant, He has revealed His triunity, and He expects us to acknowledge what He has revealed in our worship.

And some day, of course, when we are "face to face," we shall have even more revelation and shall be further enabled to worship God in spirit and truth.

That's a requirement, isn't it? Do you think Jews and Muslims worship God in spirit and truth?
I still contend that by not worshipping God in truth, they are not worshipping God at all. By denying that God is who he says he is, by worshipping a god who is actually not who the one true God says He is, they fail to worship the one, true God.

I think the question still remains as to whether one can truly worship God (not flawlessly or perpetually perfectly) and not have eternal life. If Muslims and Jews are really worshipping the one true God, why would God send them to hell?

And, as someone already brought up, doesn't that also mean Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses worship the one true God too?

Eek, halfpast, you were commenting as I was rambling. Thanks for knowing I was going to quote that verse! ;-)

For those who are wondering if Muslims worship the same God we do...

it's a long read, but revealing.

http://www.prophetofdoom.net/toc.html

This author makes a case (you'll have to decide for yourself how good it is) that the religion of Allah is *not* from heaven.

Ah.

So the question isn't:

Do other religions worship the SAME GOD?

But

Do other religions WORSHIP the same God?

Two totally different questions.

To the first, I still say 'yes', at least if we're talking about Jews and Muslims; yes and JWs and Mormons and indeed anyone who claims to recognise one God, the Creator of the world. It's just that in the first question, the word 'worship' is used very loosely in my mind, meaning 'honour, recognise, accept him as creator, give him priority', that kind of thing.

But if the question is not about whether God is actually different, but about whether we all WORSHIP him, then no - of course not. Only by recognising the fullness of the Trinity, Christ's atoning sacrifice and the indwelling Holy Spirit can we truly worship God in spirit and in truth.

Hi Sue,
re: To the first, I still say 'yes', at least if we're talking about Jews and Muslims; yes and JWs and Mormons and indeed anyone who claims to recognise one God, the Creator of the world.

How do you square that with idols? Some-one can believe in one God the creator of the world who is, for example, an alien (Scientology, Raelians), a spiritual being who lived on another planet (Mormonism), a god who tried to kill his own offspring (Classical Greek). Are these all the same God? If so - aren't idols God too? Why then would we "turn from idols to serve the true and living God" if we already recognise the true and living God in these "idols"?

There are very few religions in the world with revealed, personal, single Gods. In the major category it would be Judaism, Christianity, and Islam. Jesus Christ is the reason these are three separate religions. Judaism was, and is, looking for a Messiah and didn't see Him. Islam doesn't believe in the need. However, Islam reveres Jesus as the greatest of the prophets (up to Mohammad); believes in the virgin birth of Jesus; and reveres Mary (a Jew) above all other women (including Mohammad's mom). They believe Jesus was caught up to Heaven, like Elijah, without ever dying. Here is one ex-Christian womens testimony on her conversion to Islam (this is really a good thing for a Christian to read). It is interesting to me, in light of our liberal theologians today, that only 500 something years after Jesus's death Mohammad felt it necessary to co-opt the Virgin Birth. Of course, the Resurrection was something he couldn't use for his purposes.

One of the apologetic arguments about Christianity is that a few hundred people, in the face of incredible persecution from both the Jews and the Romans succeeded in making Christianity into the largest religion in the world. I believe this is true. However, you cannot argue that without someone mentioning that in 600 less years Islam has grown to 1.2 billion; and asking if that isn't a sign God loves them and supports them also. I tend to believe that spread is more a combination of a message Mohammad aimed right at the theological "weaknesses" [one of those being a three part, but single, God - Islam and Judaism do not think we can claim to be monotheistic] of Christianity; and a willingness on his part to be a Messiah in the sense that Jews were expecting - a military conqueror. Perhaps though they have some support from God in that they found some of the truth of Jesus if not all of the truth of Jesus. Or perhaps all the support is from Satan as our "best" competitor.

As for Judaism, we started out as a sect of Judaism until they ran us out. The apostles did not see us as a separate religion until they had to, and Christ and the apostles saw gentiles as grafted on (or risen up as sons of Abraham from the stones) to Judaism. One of the principle arguments was whether gentiles had to adopt Jewish religious law and practice to become Christians. I haven't read the Grace Online article yet but my teaching up till now has been that God will bring his people, the Jews, back to Him through Christ. I think the power of God is absolutely apparent in the rise of modern day Isreal. Hebrew is the only language that was ever essentially dead that has been reborn. Isreal's victories in its formative wars have been incredible. I think the temple will be rebuilt (if the Dome of the Rock doesn't qualify) and the abomination may stand in it. [I think there is good reason not to think the 70AD temple was the one Daniel, and Jesus, said would be destroyed.]

Whatever happens with that though: Christianity, Islam, and Judaism do worship the same God. We are the only ones that caught the complete fact of His Son; and therefore we understand God's nature the best (by far). We are fools if we do not use our similarities and common base to try to show to all of God's peoples the Son they have missed; just as Paul did when he preached.

CS Lewis:

"The world does not consist of 100 per cent. Christians and 100 per cent. Non-Christians. There are people (a great many of them) who are slowly ceasing to be Christians but who still call themselves by that name: some of them are clergymen. There are other people who are slowly becoming Christians though they do not yet call themselves so. There are people who do not accept the full Christian doctrine about Christ but who are so strongly attracted by Him that they are His in a much deeper sense than they themselves understand. There are people in other religions who are being led by God's secret influence to concentrate on those parts of their religion which are in agreement with Christianity, and who thus belong to Christ without knowing it. For example, a Buddhist of good will may be led to concentrate more and more on the Buddhist teaching about mercy and to leave in the background (though he might still say he believed) the Buddhist teaching on certain other points" -- Mere Christianity

It's debatable whether Islam has a personal God. I know muslims who don't see it that way. A revealed god - but not necessarily personal.

If a Jew is a "Scriptural" Jew, ie, he believes the writings (Torah, prophetical, etc) are from God, accepts them as truth, accepts the prophets as prophets of God, accepts that Moses was a mediator between God and Israel and the law was handed down by the Creator Himself, and knows the miracles were the acts of this same God, then how can we say that SUCH A JEW is not worshiping the God we Christians call God? Do we not read the Tanakh, Jew and Christian, and see that it's true and holy and inviolable? Do we not read the same psalms and proverbs and prophecies and histories and say, "Yes, this is the voice of the Lord, for His mouth has spoken it."

What we can say is that the fuller revelation of God's nature (triune) and purpose (Christ as Messiah, dead and resurrected) have not illumined them, but it is the same God.

The Old Testament is not suddenly a false revelation because Christ has come and fulfilled all righteousness (if not all prophecy, yet). Jews, who are indeed Jews in faith and not just in culture or DNA, believe 39 of the same books of holy writ that Christians do. And we both believe them to be holy and true.

Muslims do not accept the O.T. as Christians do. They believe the blessing came through Ishmael, not Isaac. They believe the O.T. as the Jews and Christians hold it is somehow corrupted. Jews and Christians, they may call "people of the book", but that still puts us in an inferior footing (and able to be taxed and treated differently as "less than").

Jews and Christians hold the O.T. in common. WE both believe in a God who speaks to humans as Lord, but also as a friend. Who comes down to our level to show mercy and love and kindness, as well as wrath. Muslims would not see a God who gathers us as hens will their chicks. But Jews and Christians would. Muslims would not believe that men and God can love each other and bond and walk together and fellowship; Jews and Christians can. Our God, the one of the Jews and of the Nazarene's followers, asks us to enjoy the cool of the day with Him, wrestle with Him in the night, and reason with Him at all times, as well as bow down. A Muslim would not see God as a seeker of intimacy with men. We Jews and Christians do, because we have the examples of O.T. greats pouring themselves out to a God who can enjoy their presence so much that he will snatch them away as he did Enoch or show himself as he did to Moses or bargain as he did with Abraham or patiently let Himself be tested as he did with Gideon.

The God who spoke to Abraham and miraculously provided Isaac and wrestled with Jacob and promised a deliverer through Judah, and laid out a law via Moses, and set up a temple ministry through Aaron, and conquered the land through Joshua, and exhorted the nation through Deborah and Samuel and Nathan, and laid out of times to come through Daniel and Ezekiel and Malachi...that's OUR common God.

Jews and Christians do hold to the same God, though as Christians, we know him better and we have the grace that comes through Christ. As Paul says, they failed to obtain what they sought (salvation, knowledge of God, a deliverer) and God hardened all but the remnant given grace. They are stuck in a previous line of the continuum of truth, but it is still truth. God is triune, but God, as the shema says, is also "one." The Law doesn't bind us, but the Law is still truth and teaches about God and holiness and has symbols and metaphors and "shadows" and types that lead to truth.

I don't see how anyone can read the Bible and not see a plan for Israel or the Jews. Humans may break covenants, but God does not. Whether one reads the prophets who speak of coming times and wars and Jerusalem as a cup of trembling, or Zechariah whose pierced Lord will save all of ISRAEL, or Paul speaking of Israel as the main root and we as mere branches who are dependent on that tree and can easily be lopped off while the tree remains, or Revelation (144,000 male virgins from the various tribes) and the returning King whose feet land on the Mount of Olives--how can one say, "No reason for Israel to be."

Israel was and is and, even if destroyed yet again, will be, because God has ordained it so. Dispersal, regathering, dispersal, regathering..and finally rescue and belief. It is a Jewish King who will rule on the throne of David, not a gentile.

A nation rises out of the ashes after 1900 years of alienation. That is a miracle, and that is God keeping His Word even millenia after it was pronounced. And I fully expect to see a temple on that mount again, and the whole world out to destroy Israel, because the Word will come to pass...in God's good and appointed time.

That is all just part of the plan.

Mir

I can't tell whether the disagreement here is just semantics or not.

My question is always...what does the Bible say?

John 5:23
that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father, who sent him.

Great post, Samantha.

It is great to hear this venerable Reformed belief proclaimed so clearly. It gets convoluted all too often even within the conservative (PCA/OPC/EPC) Reformed congregations--you made my day!

Thanks,

MJ