Intellectuelle

Keith Plummer has some useful links and references on this:

Here

and

Here

Speaking from personal experience, I was a virgin when I got married (28) but the fooling around I did, especially the extent of it in my only two serious relationships was wrong. I knew it then and I knew it even more after we got married.

Although there is something inherently "special" about the act of intercourse itself--of becoming one flesh--the other sexual acts also created intimacy and bonding. I even once blogged about how just sleeping next to another person is incredibly intimate (post is title "Sleeping With God").

That said, I am extremely grateful for God's grace, which was all that kept me from "crossing the line" because it did/does make a HUGE difference that I didn't actually consummate any previous relationships. Knowing he was my first and is my only also helps my husband tolerate all my flaws :) (he, on the otherhand, wasn't walking with God until just before I met him, and even had a child out of wedlock, so that just goes to show that God's idea of justice isn't the same as ours, but all things work together for good...)

This isn't of course a theological answer, but since I've been there, done that, I wanted to pitch in my two cents.

I was not chaste or pure in any form of the word prior to my marriage. If you think about it, what is being pure and chaste within a marriage? Everything is included. Whether it be physical closeness or emotional closeness, it should be reserved for my husband. We become one. Should we not also keep the same level of chastity and purity outside marriage? Yes, when we are dating we will at least get emotionally involved with someone, and we will be physically attracted to them, but if we guard our heart, and keep our body pure then will we not have an easier future without a past to deal with? As I raise my boys I try to keep this in mind. I teach them that everything is special, and it is all made to go together. Giving your heart is hardly less intimate than giving your body.

Our former church taught the teenagers that they "should not engange in any activity that creates in themselves or in another person a desire which cannot be righteously fulfilled." I thought this drove to the heart of the matter without becoming legalistic. A kiss might be a virtuous expression of growing love for some and for others a temptation. This definition could even include email, books etc. . . and it also seems to drive the individual to the Lord for help in discerning as well as help in desiring righteousness.

John Piper has an amazing set of lectures to teenagers (although our adult group listened to it and loved it too) called the blazing center. He talks to the kids about pornography in it, as well as purity in general. He urges them that if they don't set before them a GREATER pleasure and joy, which is fellowship with God, then they will not be able to resist and stay pure. We cannot teach just denial or prudery, but we must inspire with something greater.

As someone who has, for a time, led a life of great impurity, I can honestly say that the fellowship of Christ and the peace of righteousness are a far deeper joy and spiritual pleasure than any physical pleasure I succumbed to in the past. It was only by God's graciousness in making the illicit become miserable and causing me to thirst for the Himself more than for men that I was able to come out of that lifestyle.

Samantha, I don't know if this question has to do with a young person you are relating to or not, but as a warning, my 'past' has been far and away the most difficult issue I have had to deal with in marriage. Linda Dillow in 'Intimate Issues' describes sex as "God's glue". What happens when you stick two things together with an adhesive, and then tear them apart over and over and over again? There isn't much adhesive left.

Just a few thoughts. I look foreward to seeing how you deal with this topic!

thankyou for all the tho't provoking comments. i am a mother with 3 grown daughters (2 married) and a pastor's wife. i know people at every level of the continuum about which you are talking and learned of new resources today for help. i grew up in a very legalistic church/home situation where sexuality was what you didn't do b/f marriage and have discovered over 35+ yrs. of marriage and ministry that it is so much more than that...and very few books really touch on the questions i would like to discuss re it. thanks for opening the door with new help. martha

Samantha, this touches on something that's been churning in my brain for a few months. I'm hoping to purge it to paper soon.

For now, I'll comment on the other comments and leave some parting thoughts.

Stacey's approach of

"I teach them that everything is special, and it is all made to go together. Giving your heart is hardly less intimate than giving your body."

speaks to the reason why "marital relations" is more than what meets the eye. (Someone please educate me on what to call "that" so the blog won't get filtered. Until I find something else, I shall refer to it as sox.)

It also points out why we need to teach our kids, especially our daughters, not to give their heart to just anybody and only at the appropriate time. We had occasion to teach our 6 yr. old that right now, Daddy has her heart. I'll stop there and add that topic to my "need to blog" list.

Annie also made some good points.

I haven't made it over to the Keith Plummer articles YnottonY referenced, but will soon.

Now for my parting thoughts that could be worked into a stand up routine: (by someone else)

Why is it that sox is only act that is not okay before marriage, but is okay after?

Lying...stealing..disrespecting God...coveting...gossip...etc. are sins before AND after marriage. Sox is not okay before marriage, but is pivotal to the marriage relationship.

Along the "it's the only thing" line, Barbara Rainey wrote a chapter in Staying Close in which she pointed out that a husband can get every need but one met by someone other than his wife and it's okay. It may not be the best option, but it's permissable. Laundry, cooking, cleaning, friendship, even child rearing, can be done by someone else. Heck, you can even pay for those things. But if the husband goes to someone other than his wife for sox, paid or not, him and the marriage are in trouble.

Like I said, those two points don't really address your question except to point to the signifigance and mystery of the marital relationship.

I have to admit, I don't know *why* I titled this "To Help My Own Thinking". I know from long thought what I think about this issue, but wanted to hear more from others, as I have talked to people whose views of what chastity is and/or could be really surprised me.

Certainly not doing "It" falls within Biblical purity and chastity. I would also expect that "oral it" falls within that as well. Doing everything but those "its" would also be included. I would also include taking off clothes (aside from shoes and socks) and touching anywhere shorts and a basketball shirt would normally cover. I would include those because that IS part of the intimacy of marriage.

I do not think that sleeping next to someone would be impure, but I do think that it is very emotionally intimate as well as a dangerous temptation. In addition, it impacts your reputation, which may lead to others believing you to be unchaste.

I do not think that emotional intimacy before marriage takes away from purity or chastity. You can be emotionally intimate with a member of the opposite sex and not be impure or unchaste.

Because it is such a big part of marriage, though, I would say it is too tempting after marriage to have this with someone other than your spouse. The sharing of emotional intimacy between one spouse and someone else often feels like unfaithfulness to the other spouse, even if there is no sexual intimacy.

The Christian author and philosphy professor Dallas Willard would answer your question with this statement: "It's a matter of the heart. " Biblical purity and and chastity is lived out by guarding your heart and mind first. Keeping your thought life in check (and therefore guarding your heart) is imperitive to successfully living out the principals of biblical purity. If we are measuring success only by our outward actions (or lack thereof), we are starting in the wrong place.

I agree that all sin starts and/or ends in the thought life.

I believe scripture teaches that purity is clean-ness. to be unadulterated. We all know what pure water is, but defining purity in ourselves seems a bit more work. You can't just say, (as with obscenity) " I will know it when I see it." Purity begins with the heart and mind, seeking God in His wholeness and wanting Him to be the All in All. But in real life that sounds impossible to implement....Returning to the idea of pure water and comparing it to purity in my own life, I must not allow pollutants into my life, must keep away from the sewage pipes of life and must not become stagnant. All of these actions are possible and encouraged in scripture. However, just doing things will not make me pure, I must walk with God, following His Spirit's whisperings and keep my heart for Him alone. In His time, He gives the gift of a husband and the joy of initmacy. To be chaste is to wait for God's gift to be given. How rude and foolish we all are that demand the gift and when we don't receive it go looking for another gift, that may look like God's gift, but in the end generally is a cheap subsitute that ends up hurting us and our walk with God.

These are important questions especially since it is difficult today to distinguish those in the church from those in the world regarding sexual matters.

John Piper has a book out named "Sex and the Supremacy of Christ" ( http://www.desiringgodstore.org/store/index.cgi?cmd=view_item&id=603 ). I haven't read it but it looks interesting. My sister-in-law recently read a book named "Real Sex: The Naked Truth about Chastity" by Lauren Winner. It sounds very interesting.

A few comments on your post, if you please ...

> Is purity and chastity simply not doing "It" until marriage, but still
> doing various other things that usually lead up to "It"?

I would say that purity and chastity is not "simply not doing "It" until marriage." It is far more than that. Rather than looking at the biblical instruction regarding purity and chastity from a practical viewpoint I think it helps to first start looking at if from a theological viewpoint and then move into the practical outworking of that.

Under the Covenant of Works Adam was required to obey God perfectly to merit life. Adam, the lesser king of God's creation, was to remain pure, and in a sense chaste in his obedience to the great King. He was not to defile himself by eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. He was not to go after other gods. Eventually Adam defiled himself but God remained faithful to His creation. He provided a Covenant of Grace.

When God brought Israel out of the land of Egypt and gave them the Law (a covenant of works (in principle)) the patern was repeated. Israel was to remain chaste, pure and undefiled to the Lord their God. They were not to forsake their Groom. They were to anticipate the great wedding feast to come. They, the bride of Christ, would be married to the Groom and inherit the eschatological promise. Like Adam, they failed; but God remained faithful to His bride.

What about now? Has the pattern changed? Practically speaking God still requires that we be keep ourselves pure and chaste before the wedding night. But this plays out in such a more grand scale then simple instruction on what we are to do in life. What we do is affected by our understanding of who Christ is and who we are in Christ. We have been married to Christ. We are His bride. We are to remain pure to Him. We are not to chase after other gods but to remain celibate for He alone is worthy! Can you see how this works itself out at a practical level?

We are to remain pure and chaste in anticipation of our earthly marriage as we are to remain pure and chaste in anticipation of the consumation of our heavenly marriage. What is marriage patterned after? "The divine Husband who voluntarily obeyed His Father by leaving the glory of his Father's house to come and to unite Himself to a bride; and they are now one flesh. The best picture on earth of that mystical union is Christian marriage (Rev. Todd Bordow)".

I don't mean to lessen the practical aspect here but thought it best to start with the theological because the practical should be an expression of what we believe theologically. It should be the working out of our theology. Is there any clear teaching we can offer on why our children (or others) should remain chaste? Undoubtedly yes!

If my daughter was engaged in something she thought was not making her stumble I would tell her that she is decieved if she thinks this isn't causing her to stumble. I would have no problem bringing up Israel as a theological example to show how it worked out for them (in a practical manner) in their relationship with God. They tempted themselves with that which God said not to, they sinned because they did not heed God's word. They thought to themselves that this won't cause us to sin, surely we can abstain. I would have no problem quoting to her a verse like 2 Cor 11:2, "For I am jealous for you with a godly jealousy; for I betrothed you to one husband, so that to Christ I might present you as a pure virgin." This works itself out in how we conduct ourselves here on earth in our earthly relationships. Our children should heed this instruction. They should remain pure not only in deed but in mind. They/we should remain pure to Christ our heavenly husband and to our future earthly spouse.

The greater church today has some serious issues with sex. I find it hard to distinguish between the world and the church when it comes to sexual things these days. This shouldn't be so. The church should be different. The church should be a beacon to the lost, a light to the world. Sadly, though, the world sees us as a bunch of hypocrites.

There are some good questions and answers in the Heidelberg Catechism regarding this topic. I've pasted them here below.

87. Q. Can those be saved who do not turn to God from their ungrateful and impenitent walk of life?

A. By no means. Scripture says that no unchaste person, idolater, adulterer, thief, greedy person, drunkard, slanderer, robber, or the like shall inherit the kingdom of God.

108. Q. What does the seventh commandment teach us?

A. That all unchastity is cursed by God. We must therefore detest it from the heart and live chaste and disciplined lives, both within and outside of holy marriage.

109. Q. Does God in this commandment forbid nothing more than adultery and similar shameful sins?

A. Since we, body and soul, are temples of the Holy Spirit, it is God's will that we keep ourselves pure and holy. Therefore He forbids all unchaste acts, gestures, words, thoughts, desires, and whatever may entice us to unchastity.

How can it be any clearer? Just some thoughts of mine to consider. I enjoy reading your posts!

Your brother in the great King,
Shawn

Purity begins with the heart and mind...

Makes me think about who I'm intimately
commited to.

My heavenly Father who created me
and loves me or the messages of the world in my face wherever I turn.

Thank you Barbara for helping me remember that in God's time He gives us everything we need in abundance. His timing is perfect.