Intellectuelle

Lexie, I really like how you picked up the challenge. This is a great read - and thoughtprovoking :).
My answer to Adrian Warnock's challenge is on my blog in case you're interested.

Thanks, Jennine. I'll check out your blog. I'm interested to see other's people responses, both here and onother blogs. It was indeed a challenge.

You touched on some really good points. I especially like the emphasis that submission is allowing (which takes more strength than fighting against) ourselves to be subject to our husbands. It doesn't mean we give up control, but rather exercise more control in how we respond.

I also love the action items. :) It reminds me of sitting in business meetings. These action items, however, are much more practical and have way more longevity.

Thanks, Anita. The action items are residue from my illustrious 4 year teaching career and from being married to a corporate guy.

BTW, I like your blog name. If I ever get around to creating my couples blog roll, I'll have to put you guys on it.

I forget where that submission passage is (symbolic? perhaps ;) ...but I've heard it preached that the preceding passage is imperative for interpreting this one because it talks about mutual submission, i.e. "submit to one another" but I can't remember how that fit in with man being the head of woman...what I do remember (my memory isn't completely useless) was that man being the head of woman, as Christ is the head of man, meant that men had an even greater responsibility in that they had to love their wives as Christ loves the church, i.e. lay down his life for her. And when he took the lead, the woman would naturally respond to that kind of love with submission because it would be a joy to submit. I think I actually learned that last part when we went to Biblical marital counseling.

I eagerly await your next installment... :)

Oh the joy of a selective memory! :)

If I think about it, why wouldn't I want to let someone else take the heat for the direction of the family, etc.?

Somehow that rather crass statement reminds me to pray for my husband and his success as leader of the house because if he does well, I do well.

Off the cuff, it seems that the "submit to one another" fits in with Jesus being a servant leader.

Marla,
I think you're referring to Eph. 5. Paul's telling the church how to live, and in verse 20 he says that we should be "submitting to one another in the fear of God". He then goes on to expound that by talking about wives submitting to husbands (and husbands loving wives; and in chapter 6, children obeying parents, fathers not exasperating their children, servants submitting to their masters, and masters treating their servants appropriately). V. 20 is kind of like the intro to the whole section - but, unfortunately, that's all I remember about it from when my pastor preached through it - I forget how that fits in with the man being head of woman thing! :-)

I guess the best thing is just for each of us to focus on doing our part and then it will all come together in God's perfect order. It's sounds so smooth but living it out is quite another thing! (as I'm sure we all know, whether we're wives, husbands or children).

My own response tends to be "thank God I'm single !" .........

That would be great to have a tummy rub, but shoulders are better. Good advice for all us wives. It is good to remember the chain of command. But also good to remember to think of my husband before myself. I forgot that sometimes more than I want to admit.

Popping back in here after discovering something very relevant. My mom copied a section of "Pastoral Care for Survivors of Family Abuse" (one of her seminary textbooks I presume) and I just happened to finally read it today. Here is the portion dealing with Ephesians 5:

"The whole passage speaks about a mutual relationship of wives to husbands, 'Be subject to one another out of reverence for Christ.' (Eph 5:21) and goes on to speak of a mutual relationship between husbands and wives.

It should be noted that the word most commonly translated 'subject' would more appropriately be translated 'defer' or 'accomodate.' The ideal Paul is trying to communicate is mutual sensitivity and responsiveness, the kind of 'more than halfway' willingness to give on the part of both parties that is essential for any successful marriage. Paul goes on to hold up Jesus as the model of giving and service toward which both husbands and wives ought to strive.

Marie Fortune points out that most of Paul's passage on marriage (Eph 5:21-29) is directed at husbands. 'Nine of the verses are directed toward husbands' responsibilities in marriage; only three of the verses refer to wives' responsibilities and one refers to both. Yet contemporary interpretation often focuses only on the wives and often misuses those passages to justify abuse of wives by their husbands."

I know this firsthand since my mom felt obligated to endure the abuse of my stepdad--and to take it a step further--stay married to him after the church wed her to him to avoid them "living in sin." At least cohabitating didn't trap them into a sinful lifestyle the way marriage did. But now neither she nor I believes God forces people to stay in abusive marriages--I once blogged about how addiction/abuse is a form of infidelity and I just found that same notion in this book excerpt.

Anyway, sorry to hijack your post but I just felt that this (abusive relationships) was an important issue to address in light of submission, but I will also eventually post about the question of whether the patriarchal model (vs. egalitarian) is actually Biblical. Sure to cause an uproar...

Lexie, This is a great post! I am sorry I didn't comment on it sooner. I feel like I am spent all my "intellectuelle" energy trying to write my own post! And I bit off more than I can chew.

Marla, I can't keep my big mouth shut, but I did an extensive study on the passage in Ephesians 5 in Greek last year and I did a particular study of the word "submission." I looked at the history of its use in Greek literature prior to the NT and its use within the NT, and I came to the starting conclusion that it does means "submit." I don't want to get into a huge discussion on this one word in Lexie's post, but I just had to mention that. Perhaps in some contexts, it can have a softer sense of "defer" but I do think that the primary sense of the word is "submit."

Hannah, then that would also mean that husband have to submit to their wives, since v. 21 says to submit to each other. The question is why does it go on to specifically tell wives to submit to husbands? (v. 24) I think the rest of the verses (the metaphor of Christ and the church) explain it--that it's a role issue rather than a superiority issue. As the man loves his wife with the self-sacrificing love of Christ, she responds by submitting to his authority. Then the question is, if he doesn't love her the way he should, does she still have to submit? Yes and no, but I really will save that for my future post, as well as tackling the larger issue of the patriarchal model vs. egalitarian (equal but different) model. And of course I will be drawing on more than just this passage.

Marla, Yes, I am aware of verse 21 which says, "Everyone should submit to one another out of reverence to Christ." It is actually not a complete sentance but a participle which I think governs the entire following passage (not everyone would agree, though). I'm not taking issue with what you said at all, just with the suggestion that the word "submission" should be translated "defer." I agree with your main point completely. Women certainly are not inferior and shouldn't be subjected to abuse. And I agree that churches often tend to major on the three verses and neglect the nine.

Hannah, thanks for clarifying. Once you made that distinction (that it was submit vs. defer), I just wanted to call attention to its meaning in the bigger picture, that mutual submission is more akin to deference than one-sided submission. But I'm glad we're on the same page, though I know we could totally deal with it even if we weren't :)

Jennifer said, "But also good to remember to think of my husband before myself. I forgot that sometimes more than I want to admit."

I hear you Jen. (And I responded to your comment.) :)

Really, I need to work on that, too. Just ask Jack.

I am a man responding to this, so please do not send out a posse to hunt me down. Just some observations.

First of all, the Bible does not say for women to submit to their husbands, it says “Wives, submit to your husbands, as is fitting in the Lord.” I believe the key there is the “as is fitting in the Lord.” Also, IMHO Ephesians 5:21-28 spells the relationship out between a man and a women much clearer:

21Be subject to one another out of reverence for Christ (the Messiah, the Anointed One).
22Wives, be subject (be submissive and adapt yourselves) to your own husbands as [a service] to the Lord.
23For the husband is head of the wife as Christ is the Head of the church, Himself the Savior of [His] body.
24As the church is subject to Christ, so let wives also be subject in everything to their husbands.
25Husbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the church and gave Himself up for her,
26So that He might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the Word,
27That He might present the church to Himself in glorious splendor, without spot or wrinkle or any such things [that she might be holy and faultless].
28Even so husbands should love their wives as [being in a sense] their own bodies. He who loves his own wife loves himself.

Verses 24-25 sums up the symbiotic relationship between a Christian married couple rather nicely. Most women stumble over the “subject in everything” and the husbands “gave Himself up for her”.

Interesting too that Lexie has pretty much ignored 1 Timothy 2:11-14. I would be interested to hear a women's perspective.

I can hear the stones rattling so I will leave now :).

Hey, Art. Thanks for stopping by and stepping up to the plate. Take a look at the other posts. You’ll enjoy the conversation. Don’t forget to comment and put in your two cents. (I know you need some prodding to give your opinion.)

Now let me take care of a few things:

The NIV does say submit, though Marla’s and Hannah’s posts point out a possibly more accurate translation.

The Eph. 5 passage wasn’t on the list of scriptures in the challenge, though bringing in additional ones was allowed. I just stuck to the list.

I Tim. 2 is in the works for the next post.

Your point that, “Most women stumble over the “subject in everything” and the husbands “gave Himself up for her”, “ was a good one. It fit with Marla’s point that women were addressed 3 times in the passage compared to 9 for the men.

Marla, no problem bringing up the abuse issue. It needs to be addressed.

Art, you'll have to ask Jack if all this talk bore fruit. :)

I'm surprised no one has mentioned the Christians for Biblical Equality website, www.cbeinternational.org, for sources of information presenting alternate understandings of Paul's instructions to male and female believers about how to relate to one another. These are fellow Christians committed to rigorous exegesis, who consider the Bible the authoritative Word of God. Regarding I Cor. 11:3, the word "head" can refer to "source", as in Christ is the source of every man (he created Adam), man is the source of woman (Eve created from Adam's side), and God is the source of Christ. Note that in the last instance, there is no "chain of command" present in the Trinity. If not, why would we think the order of creation of man and woman implies authority to command? For a great book for lay people, see "Discovering Biblical Equality: Complementarity Without Hierarchy" (I bought it from Amazon). Both men and women scholars address scriptures relevant to the issue and offer reasonable intepretations supporting God's desire for both men and women to freely exercise the gifts of His Spirit. As Paul says in Gal. 3:28, in Christ, "there is neither male nor female". The book also offers ideas about how to live out equality in the church and marriage and home. Very freeing, for both women and men of faith.

Patty, thank you for sharing that interpretation and for the resources. I will have to check them out. I am doing a lot of processing about this issue--some of it stirred up by my mom being in seminary and the abuse she endured in her marriage until my stepdad died and she got a new life (and a new husband who is not authoritarian) and some of it from being a new wife and mom.