Last weekend I attended the Washington Briefing: Values Voter Summit where I had the pleasure of hearing numerous engaging, civil, thought-provoking speeches by various pastors, pundits, and politicians.
Unfortunately, the only thing that made the news was the things that I didn't hear when I was there: Bishop Wellington Boone using the word "faggot"; Jerry Falwell implying that Hillary Clinton was more polarizing that Satan; Connie Marshner recommending using an unethical political tactic; and Ann Coulter sounding like...well, Ann Coulter.
Naturally, because I attended the event and because these are "my people" some folks consider me guilty by association. I wish I could say that they are wrong, that I can't be held accountable. But I can't. And I can. I'm just not sure what to do about it.
I can't apologize for another person's actions. I don't personally know any of these people and it would be the height of presumption for me to offer a mea culpa on their behalf. I could lodge my complaint to them in private, but that doesnt address the concerns of the public. I could openly denounce and censure them (and admittedly have in the case of Coulter) but they are still my fellow Christians. As much as I condemn their remarks, they are, like me, members of the body of Christ.
I could simple remain silent, ignore the issue and wait till the controversy passes. I must confess that this was my original plan. Even now I'm tempted to hit the delete button before this entry is posted. But that would be cowardly. For better or worse, this is a matter that I must address.
This is the point in the post where I should offer an explanation of how I plan to resolve the conflict. I should present a clever resolution, possibly one that can"t even be explained in English but must rely on a foreign term, like schadenfreude or katahara itai. It would get me off the hook and leave everyone admiring my wit and insight.
But to be honest...I got nothing.
So here's a story that's somewhat related: In 1924, the first editor of Kiwanis Magazine, Roe Fulkerson, published a column carrying the title "He Ain't Heavy, He's My Brother". In the article Fulkerson's encounters "a spindly and physically weak lad" carrying a baby and "staggering towards a neighboring park". "Pretty big load for such a small kid", said Fulkerson. "Why, mister," the boy smiled, "He ain't heavy; he's my brother."
I wish I could say that. The truth is, though, my brothers are heavy.
I don"t enjoy carrying the burden of being associated with them when they speak in ways that are hurtful and un-Christian. I also don't like the feeling of guilt that comes from knowing that I also say things that are hurtful and un-Christian and that shame my fellow believers. So maybe the most I can say is yes, they are heavy. But they're still my brothers (and sisters) in Christ. I may not like everything they say or do, but I love them just the same.
[Disclaimer: While it should go without saying, my views do not necessarily reflect those of my employer. I'm speaking only for myself and not for the organization that I serve with pride and pleasure. I don't always agree with the positions of FRC and I can guarantee that they certainly don't necessarily agree with many of the opinions I express on this blog. Do not take anything that I say to reflect the opinions of that organization. I am speaking only for myself.]
Unfortunately most Christians got nothing, Joe, just like you.
We are told quite clearly to remove evil from our Churches. Paul has some pretty instructive advice for us.
1It is actually reported that there is immorality among you, and immorality of such a kind as does not exist even among the Gentiles, that someone has his father's wife.
2You have become arrogant and have not mourned instead, so that the one who had done this deed would be removed from your midst.
3For I, on my part, though absent in body but present in spirit, have already judged him who has so committed this, as though I were present.
4 In the name of our Lord Jesus, when you are assembled, and I with you in spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus,
5 I have decided to deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of his flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
6 Your boasting is not good Do you not know that a little leaven leavens the whole lump of dough?
7 lean out the old leaven so that you may be a new lump, just as you are in fact unleavened. For Christ our Passover also has been sacrificed.
8Therefore let us celebrate the feast, not with old leaven, nor with the leaven of malice and wickedness, but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.
9 I wrote you in my letter not to associate with immoral people;
10 I did not at all mean with the immoral people of this world, or with the covetous and swindlers, or with idolaters, for then you would have to go out of the world.
11But actually, I wrote to you not to associate with any so-called brother if he is an immoral person, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or a swindler--not even to eat with such a one.
12 For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Do you not judge those who are within the church?
13 But those who are outside, God judges. REMOVE THE WICKED MAN FROM AMONG YOURSELVES.
Are these folks a part of the body (IE: The Church?) or is this simply a political group that you are working for with no connection to our Lord and Savior?
Joe:
If yours is the correct response to give, then I believe many of us owe non-violent Muslims an apology for having repeatedly and incessantly demanded them to repudiate the actions of violent Muslims. The terrorists, for all their reprehensible and sinful deeds, are nevertheless brothers in the faith with all other Muslims.
Personally, I think well-known leaders - other than Tony Campolo or Brian McLaren - need to respectfully and publically denounce inappropriate statements in such instances. I don't think we get a "pass" simply because, well, shucks, he's my brother.
If our response is going to be, "Well, yeah, but . . ." then we owe Muslims the same courtesy.
And, as long as I'm in this self-righteous and critical mood, you wrote,
"I can’t apologize for another person’s actions."
Why not? I've apologized to a lot of non-Christians and Christians for abuse (verbal and otherwise) they've suffered from zealous Christians - which, sadly, too often includes me. If one ambassador fails to speak the truth, do not the other ambassadors have the responsibility to correct up the misrepresentation of the King whom they represent? I can't imagine not apologizing after hearing some of the things I've been told.
Eric & Lisa:
Are y'all conjoined twins?
It's nice and tidy to relegate such people to the fires of hell, but that is the black-and-white mentality usually reserved for teenagers. Lacking the spiritual gift of judgmentalism, I am not so quick to label those whom I've never met or gotten to know. Their teachings/beliefs may be wrong, but they need to be rebuked rather than tossed overboard.
Disobedience to or misunderstanding of the Savior's message does not equal unbelief regarding the Savior's atonement.
Dr. Mike,
If yours is the correct response to give, then I believe many of us owe non-violent Muslims an apology for having repeatedly and incessantly demanded them to repudiate the actions of violent Muslims. The terrorists, for all their reprehensible and sinful deeds, are nevertheless brothers in the faith with all other Muslims.
Let me be clear. First, I'm not saying that my response --whatever response it is (I'm not sure myself) is the correct one. Second, if any of my fellow Christians start killing innocent children in the name of God, I’ll have no problem repudiating them – or even anamethizing them.
To be honest, I’m really surprised that you would make such a comparison.
- other than Tony Campolo or Brian McLaren
Why do they get a pass? Are they outside the fold?
Why not? I've apologized to a lot of non-Christians and Christians for abuse (verbal and otherwise) they've suffered from zealous Christians - which, sadly, too often includes me.
Although we often use that language, that’s not a real apology. We can say that we are ashamed and empathize but apology requires taking a moral supplication. We can’t do that on behalf of someone else.
If one ambassador fails to speak the truth, do not the other ambassadors have the responsibility to correct up the misrepresentation of the King whom they represent?
Correct misrepresentations, yes. Imply that we have the power and authority to speak for others, no.
I'm a little surprised by controversy over Rev. Falwell's remarks; Hilary probably is more polarizing than Satan. After all, most people seem pretty happy with the package that Satan is pushing. It's a lot like saying that Dems hate Bush more than they hate Hitler; the point isn't to make a comparison between the two but to show how strong feelings run, which was clearly the point when your read Falwell's remarks. And for the record, I think both statements are true.
Joe -
Clarifications, not necessarily rebuttals:
1. It is, as you say, an unequal comparison, but evangelical Christians too often wink at the sins of the tongue as though the assassination of another person's character is not a major thing. But you know Jas 3 as well as I do.
Plus, where does one draw the line? Clearly murder calls for rebuke, but what about kidnapping? Abuse of spies to procure information? Lies? Slander?
It seems to me that we are called to correct our fellow believers for any and all sins - for their sakes. When it is public, the reputation of Christ is also in need of defense and we fail if we flinch at this point. Public sin calls for public rebuke: ask Peter, who caught it from both Jesus and Paul.
2. I'm not implying that Campolo or McLaren are "outside the fold," only that criticism from them would be expected and largely ignored by most Evangepublicans. "Other than" was meant to be understood as "in addition to" rather than "instead of." Poor composition, perhaps, on my part.
3 & 4. I'm not sure I understand what you mean by "moral supplication," but I am not speaking for others at such times. I am speaking for Christ Jesus, who has made me one of His ambassadors and given me the frightful responsibility of speaking and representing Him during His visible absence.
Does that include authority and power? Well, at least in some cases it seems that He has placed that stewardship on us. If we all kept this in mind - that we represent the King and not the president or a particular agenda - then I think fewer foolish things would be said.
Well, at least in public.
NOTE: I hope this exchange is understood as respectful disagreement rather than caustic arguing or a game of one-up-manship. If it's not respectful disagreement, then I apologize and will excuse myself from further discussion. I say this to you, Joe, but especially and primarily for those who will read these comments and might misunderstand the spirit in which they are intended.
Joe,
I've had occassion to wonder, both now and in the past, just how long you could cling to your association with such groups as the FRC. I know that on many matters you find yourself in agreement with them, but as you make clear here, on other matters you most certainly do not.
I've always found your work both thoughtful creative. I've often found it funny. But you are an independent thinker, and I suspect that the FRC has little tolerance for ones such as you. There are times when conscience will require that you not tow the FRC line - as seems to have happened here. How long before you're told that you're either with them or against them? How long before you'll have to make a decision to either quit the FRC or hold true to conscience?
It seems to me that you're both too intelligent and too humane to remain comfortably within the fold of the FRC.
Joe: I think you know what you have to do.
The question is, how long will it take before you do it?
I see nothing wrong with apologizing on behalf of the sins of others. Daniel repented for the sins of Israel even though he had done nothing wrong. If Hillary is more polarizing than the devil, then Jerry Falwell is more polarizing than God. And the "faggot" remarks? Despicable! But, I agree with you, Joe, these are our brothers and sisters in Christ and we need to love them with the same love that Christ has for them.
I believe we can prayerfully and with love simply say "I do not agree" when a brother/sister says something out of place. We should avoid personal attacks on anyone, but there is a way to disagree without making it personal. If we are not willing to, when needed, take a public stand we give the impression that there really is not a standard.
I'm not a fan of Jerry Falwell but it was my understanding that his remark about Hillary and Satan was aimed at evangelicals who sometimes seem to act as if she were worse than Satan. It was a needed corrective for those whose passions override their piety and needs clarification not defense.
As far as your noted antipathy toward Ann Coulter, her barbs are as poisonous as Jonathan Swift's modest proposal to end Ireland's overpopulation and famine crisis by having the Irish eat their own children, way over the top but often enveloping a real truth within their satirical wrapper. Elijah, Isaiah, and Jeremiah used satire in some of their prophecies, so the category should not be out of bounds because it doesn't fit our tastes. Shock value works in some contexts and for some audiences. I wince at some of what she says too but while agreeing with her detractors about the way she says things I would try to turn the discussion to what she says.
And similarly, whenever anyone identified as a Christian says something out of bounds the simplest solution is to agree that it was wrong for them to say that while endeavoring not to make the same mistakes ourselves.
Well, the primary mission of FOF etc. as defined by their
can be summed up as "Get the Faggots". Its undeniable. Just follow what they spend the most money on.So while the words of those jerks at the convention are offensive, whats worse is that you had rooms full of people nodding their heads in agreement with them. Or just keeping quiet.
In the face of those facts, the only conclusion possible is these people do represent the true face of their particular brand of Christian political activism. They may not represent particular decent individuals, but obviously there are not enough of those decent people in the bunch to have any real influence.
So I found them refreshingly honest. None of that bull-crap about loving the sinner...ad nauseum.
I mean get real. Consider the debate about torture going on in this country and consider the primary issues of focus at the convention. Kind of a disconnect wouldn't you say?
What was more important, discussing the Government adopting water-boarding as a routine form of interrogation? Or continuing the "Get the Faggots" religious crusade.
Sorry, but God does not dwell in that House.
http://www.talk2action.org/story/2006/9/25/191346/717/Front_Page/New_Front_in_the_Culture_War_br_Gay_Rights_Sacrificed_on_the_Altar_of_the_Mid_Term_Elections
http://www.followthemoney.org/press/ReportView.phtml?r=236
http://time.blogs.com/daily_dish/2006/09/this_is_an_actu.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arlington_Group
Joe,
An honest question that is no way meant to be a trap. While I may profoundly disagree with you, I do respect your honesty and your thinking (perhaps because of, rather than in spite of your wrong conclusions). That being said, I have to ask, why do you assume that people like Ann Coulter, and the others, are part of any church of which you are a member?
Ok, so you work on an event that they were invited to. But, to paraphrase the Godfather, that was just business. Why do Christians accept Ann Coulter as one of their own when, at least to this non-Evangelical observer, her actions define her as anything but a follower of Jesus Christ?
"I'm not a fan of Jerry Falwell but it was my understanding that his remark about Hillary and Satan was aimed at evangelicals who sometimes seem to act as if she were worse than Satan. It was a needed corrective for those whose passions override their piety and needs clarification not defense."
-If I had known that, I would not have made my remark about Jerry Falwell being more polarizing than God. I made a mistake by responding to something before examining the situation. I agree with Dennis that we can say "I do not agree" while avoiding personal attacks.
In my opinion, we need to critique people's IDEAS! I strive to do that without critiquing their CHARACTER! So often, in blogdom, we find people being attacked for WHO they are rather than for WHAT they are saying. I'm just as guilty, like anyone. But if someone SAYS something that is a stupid idea, it should be critiqued as that, without saying it's because the person is a complete idiot or whatever. I have no trouble believing that we should respect people, no matter who they are, as people, but that we shouldn't have to respect an idea or statement if it is, for lack of a better word, stupid. thus spoke churchpundit!
If I had known that....
I don't know that you meant it this way, but that is a common theme today. Just about anything is ok against "conservative Christians." On the other hand, it is the worst of the worst if it is against anyone else. That kind of double-standard is what lets many of us not get quite as riled about a Coulter.
I will take most of the complaints much more seriously when "the other side" is equally firm on its "transgressions". Since I don't see this happening, I will still look to keep myself pure, and watch who I associate with, but I will not kowtow before those who have no problem using the same tactics.
Much of the outrage is purely political, and not really full of much principle.
Brad
My question is who the "brothers" ought to be.
My view is that grouping "the body of christ" together isn't enough.
I would prefer it if you would group "people of faith" together.
For it is this group, people of faith, who I would argue need to start apologizing to the rest of us.
For those of us who oppose religions, all of them, we are constantly at the mercy of one or another of your violent ideas or actions.
Quite frequently, I find myself wondering why it is that I might have to suffer consequences of other people's bad decisions based on faith.
For example, what happens when the Indians or the Pakistanis really do nuke each other???
Why should it be that we who oppose religion altogether should suffer injuries at your hands?
As far as FOF et al goes, I say they're mild. So they think i'm a faggot, big deal?
What i'd like to hear, is all of you religious people really get together, all fundies, and hindus, muslims unite, and start apolizing to us who have, for centuries been required to put things back together when you decide to start blowing each other up.
I "pray" for an end to religion, which I take to be synonymous with the beginning of peace.
You do not have to recognize that religions are the basis for global violence (and almost only that). But you should have to realize that all peoples of faith are fundamentally the same. Christians and Muslims, Jews, Hindu's etc. You people, and your willingness to die for and kill for unproveable notions are different from the rest of us.
By the rest of us, I mean those of us who work for peace and secular space--who can't even begin to wonder why anyone cares to question if Mary was a virgin, or if Mohammed brought 'only violence' to Islam??
I'm surprised you're so bothered by "words" which are relatively mild in the grand scheme of what your people are doing in the world at large. Given that religious wars have killed millions--in the last decade alone--I'll take an unkind word now and then, it's really not such a big deal.
If you wanna rebuke somebody and do something really useful, get your "brothers" to put down the guns.
regards,
c
But they’re still my brothers (and sisters) in Christ. I may not like everything they say or do, but I love them just the same.
And non-Christians are what- dead to you?
Sorry, but I try really hard to have compassion for everyone. Even you. And it really isn't easy.
Joe,
I agree with most of your post, but you're wrong on Falwell. It was clearly a hyperbole, and not a serious statement or comparison. Think of it this way;
If a Democratic leader (or clergy member for that sake) said that they hope Katherine Harris runs for president, because she is more polarizing then the Devil, would you be offended? I wouldn't. If Howard Dean were to causually say "Bush is more polarizing then the devil" I would disagree, but still wouldn't be offended. It's obviously not meant literally.
Falwell has said many embarassing things, but this isn't one of them.
OMG, I just blogged about this very issue:
http://therevolutionnetwork.blogspot.com/2006/09/on-down-low.html
I absolutely agree. Yes, believers are to encourage each other to love and good works, sometimes to get on each other's case when needed. But by no means should we leave off loving one another, for love is the hallmark and signature of the household of faith. Not to love one another makes a blanket statement to the world around us that we are not real.
Keep the resume updated Joe.:^)
You are working for a political lobby group.
A fair number of us have been down this road, and the time comes when we make personal decisions about which fork to take.
When that time comes that decision will be between you, your wife and God, not necessarily in that order.
In the meantime, you are being as clear as you are able about why you are there.
It's politics.
Your feelings and thoughts aren't going to change a damn thing, nor are you going to be spared by the public, the politicans or potentially your co-workers.
The FRC pays you, whether you want the flack on your blog became secondary the first day on the new job.
It's unfortunate, but that's how the game is played. While it's pleasant to believe it won't be played out here at the Evangelical Outpost, I don't think you're going to have much choice about that either.
Maybe you were hired for your good looks.:^)
I believe we can prayerfully and with love simply say "I do not agree" when a brother/sister says something out of place. We should avoid personal attacks on anyone, but there is a way to disagree without making it personal. If we are not willing to, when needed, take a public stand we give the impression that there really is not a standard.
Joe:
I think you have put your finger on a major problem of the church in the USA, the Caribbean and wider world: our own need for repentance and discipleship, leading to reformation, transformation and blessing in the church and home, then the community and nation and wider world.
Judgement from God begins in his own house, and he warns us by his apostle to examine ourselves to see if we are in the faith. Repentance can then spread fromthere on. On this, I think the US Congressional proclamation of a day of fasting and penitent prayer in May 1776 is very instructive for us all, as we look at a Global War threatening to go nuclear:
Grace, open our eyes
Gordon.
PS: I refrain from commenting on the other comments, except this, which caught my eye as an especially glaring howler: someone out there needs to go and investigate the actual history of the Focus onthe Family ministry before spouting off on its objectives.
And non-Christians are what- dead to you?
Sorry, but I try really hard to have compassion for everyone. Even you. And it really isn't easy.
mumon, this is just not the type of comment one would expect from one who trys "really hard to have compassion for everyone." It looks like you are trying to elevate yourself at the expense of another (Joe in this case), which really doesn't qualify has compassionate behavior. Try harder.
What a crock - as though you can count on married people with children to support the Sexual Predators/Torture Party.
Heh. right....
Instead of apologizing, why not look at it scripturally? When I heard about the one minister who made the remarks about "faggots" and "sissies," for instance, it reminded me of why I (and the part of the body of Christ of which I am part) welcome full inclusion homosexuals and gay marriage. It all has to do with what the author of 1 John 2 wrote so many centuries ago (and in a passage dealing specifically with the spirit of antichrist):
3 This is how we know that we know him: if we keep his commandments.
4 One who says, "I know him," and doesn't keep his commandments, is a liar, and the truth isn't in him.
5 But whoever keeps his word, God's love has most certainly been perfected in him. This is how we know that we are in him:
6 he who says he remains in him ought himself also to walk just like he walked.
7 Brothers, I write no new commandment to you, but an old commandment which you had from the beginning. The old commandment is the word which you heard from the beginning.
8 Again, I write a new commandment to you, which is true in him and in you; because the darkness is passing away, and the true light already shines.
9 He who says he is in the light and hates his brother, is in the darkness even until now.
10 He who loves his brother remains in the light, and there is no occasion for stumbling in him.
11 But he who hates his brother is in the darkness, and walks in the darkness, and doesn't know where he is going, because the darkness has blinded his eyes.
The reason Ms. Clinton is indeed more polarizing than Satan is that she is taken more seriously. Much of the public doesn't even believe Satan exists, yet only WISH that she didn't.
The Christian message must not be overshadowed by politics of any kind-especially unsavory politics.
I say this as someone who hasn't voted for a Democrat since Bob Casey was still on the scene.
I think statements like Falwell's are indicative of who he is. Calling someone Satan, or indeed, worse than Satan is not Christian. Didn't this man blame Katrina on Gays. ect.. and now that his party has been exposed, via Foley, will he go with republicans or Christians?
"What a crock - as though you can count on married people with children to support the Sexual Predators/Torture Party."
Statements like this only prove that you have no compassion and are unable to engage in adult and rational debate.
Do you seriously think the Dems have never had sexual deviants in their membership? Or never been in power when torture was used, such as throughout WW2 and most of the Vietnam war?
Grow up.
Our main fault is that we consider the others as part of an association and not individuals. But don’t worry; I can’t blame you for what others do.
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