1

What an excellent answer. You've piqued my interest enough that I just ordered a copy.

I think Christians can begin to take discernment for granted so that they wonder why so many people seem so easily deceived. It helps to be reminded that the ability to distinguish good from evil requires intensive training. But for the grace of God...

2

Great answer, and great book, Tim, especially for one who has no "formal theological training".

;>)

I am carefully reading this book, and recommend it to all Christians.

3

"You shall know the tree by its fruit"

Infanticide is evil.

God ordered Abraham to kill his son.

So, what can we discern about God from that?

4

A good first answer...

I'm wondering though, if people think that good/evil is the equivalent of truth/error, and whether people think that error is the opposite of truth...

5

Robert,

Even worse. He saw to it that his innocent Son was actually killed! Shocking.

6

So, what can we discern about God from that?

I'd agree with oclarki that God commanding Abraham to take the life of his son (and act God ultimately halted before Abraham was able to complete it) is far less shocking than God creating a plan to save humanity which involved Him pouring out His wrath upon His own Son. What we can discern from this is that God demands justice but that He also offers mercy. Where God tested Abraham's faith in demanding that he offer Isaac as a sacrifice, at the cross He proved His willingness to offer His own Son to save fallen humanity.

7

Tim

Justice has nothing to do with it. Is it just to condemn all souls to Hell because of the sin of one man? No it isn't. Collective justice isn't justice, neither is disproportionate justice. According to you Christians no person is capable of earning salvation, no matter how good a life he leads. The tiniest sin is equivalent to the most heinous, for both earn an eternity of unrelenting anguish. And that tiniest sin is committed by the mere act of being born.

But even given that, why is it just to punish a sinless man to absolve a sinful man? That's the opposite of justice.

If God exists and he is just, then He can't be anything like the god you worship. You shall know the tree by its fruit.

If God exists and he isn't just, then we're all screwed.

8

Robert,

For arguments sake, lets drop original sin out of the equation, so we're no longer guilty for Adam's sin. That still leaves us with the sins that we commit of our own volition. For each of those sins, it is true that we deserve death because, in the sight of a perfectly holy God, one sin is the same a million. God is perfect and demands perfection. The just punishment that He has decreed for those infractions is an eternity separated from Him.

It is true that if an unwilling man was killed the sins of another, it truly would be a heinous act. However, Jesus gave up his life willingly as a sacrifice to atone for the sins of His people. When we put our trust in Christ, our sins (past, present, and future) are cleansed and God counts Christ's righteousness as ours. So the only way to reach Heaven where we will have eternal life in fellowship with God. That is why "Jesus said ... 'I am THE way, and THE truth, and THE life. NO ONE comes to the Father except through me. [John 14:6 ESV]"

9

For each of those sins, it is true that we deserve death because, in the sight of a perfectly holy God, one sin is the same a million.

If your God can't distinguish between one sin and a million, and thinks we deserve death for even the smallest "sin," than this God you speak of is neither perfect nor holy.

God is perfect and demands perfection.

If he demands perfection from creatures whom he knowingly created imperfect, in an imperfect Universe, then he's not "perfect;" he's a bloody idiot.

10

Robert and Raging Bee,

I would say that each of you suffer from the same problems:

1) Your view of God is too low.

2) Your view of man is too high.

We need to recognize the holy perfection of our eternal Creator. Hopefully then we will also recognize that every moment of our lives where we do not give Him first place is a terrible affront to Him and deserving of damnation.

Each and every day we choose our way over His and pursue our desires in place of His will. Each of us deserves death and hell.

Yet, in His love, God the Fahter sent His Son, Jesus Christ, to take our place on the cross and purchase for us the eternity that we had forfeited.

Raging Bee may consider this act to that of a "bloody idiot", but I would remind him that the very God whom he slanders will one day sit in judgement of every idle word. Repent today and trust in Christ alone for salvation.

11

No, Jerry, YOUR view of God is too low. I -- and plenty of other people of all faiths, and even a few atheists -- see a God far more wise, just and comapssionate than the one whose "perfection" you insist we recognize.

We need to recognize the holy perfection of our eternal Creator.

"Holy perfection" as evidenced by what? An arbitrary assertion, with no evidence or reasoning behind it, from someone who shows no sign of knowing what he's talking about? You haven't even defined the concept of "perfection," so your assertion has no content at all.

Hopefully then we will also recognize that every moment of our lives where we do not give Him first place is a terrible affront to Him and deserving of damnation.

And of course, in your eyes, thinking for ourselves and not taking your assertions at face value constitutes not giving your God first place. Sorry, dude, but God gave us brains and he wants us to use them. He also wants us to distinguish true prophets from false prophets.

Yet, in His love, God the Fahter sent His Son, Jesus Christ, to take our place on the cross and purchase for us the eternity that we had forfeited.

In other words, your God set an unrealistic standard for his creatures, enforced his standard with mindless vindictiveness; then, when he realized what a huge mistake he'd made, he had to send his own son to die for it, just to correct it and cover it up. Nowhere during my ongoing spiritual journey have I ever worshipped a God that stupid.

...I would remind him that the very God whom he slanders will one day sit in judgement of every idle word.

The petty little "God" I'm trashing has nothing at all to do with the sublime power and intelligence whose presence I've felt for most of my life. Your pathetic little threats don't bother me, and the fact that you resort to them proves how little you understand.

12

Your pathetic little threats don't bother me, and the fact that you resort to them proves how little you understand.

My friend, if you consider an eternity of damnation in hellfire a "petty little threat," you have some serious issues. It is clear that both you and Robert have some serious anger issues towards God. The god that you put forth has no real power, constantly allowing men to run amok. Ultimately this is true because the god that you envision does not exist, sorry. You both need to repent of your anger and idolatry and turn to Christ before you could ever even begin to understand us. Until such time this effort is just casting pearls before swine.

13

Ragging Bee,

You told Jerry his view of God was
to low, petty, an arbitrary assertion,
with no evidence or reasoning behind it,
from someone who shows no sign of
knowing what he's talking about, and
finished with stating how little he understands.

I would like to understand
Your views of God and your
evidence and reasoning behind it.

I would greatly appreciate you sharing
those things I would really like to
understand where you’re coming
from.

Thanks,
Scott

14

My friend, if you consider an eternity of damnation in hellfire a "petty little threat," you have some serious issues.

And if you consider such a threat worth taking seriously, when it comes from another mortal like yourself -- one considerably less informed of spiritual matters than most -- then you're the one with the "issues." Any moron or homeless drunk can say "My god's gonna get you for that!" How weak-kneed do you have to be, to think it means anything? Which of all those arbitrary, and equally unsubstantiated, threats should one believe?

Scott: my own spiritual experience and beliefs are far too complex (and still evolving) to describe adequately here; so I'll just start by saying that God is too big, too sublime, and too complex to fit into any one religion, even the ones I consider best. Furthermore, Christianity, and the wisdom of Jesus, has been better explained to me by people far wiser than the "You gotta believe in my God or burn in Hell" crowd. Decades of life-experience tells me there's more to God than what's in the Bible, and there's more to the Bible than the Bible-thumpers understand.

15

You both need to repent of your anger and idolatry and turn to Christ before you could ever even begin to understand us.

How do you know I haven't "turned to Christ?" It is, in fact, my understanding of Christ's teachings, and the reality of God's creation, that leads me to reject the nonsensical falsehoods spoken in his name here.

Until such time this effort is just casting pearls before swine.

In other words, your stock talking-points didn't convince me, so you're giving up the effort to persuade me. For someone trying to spread the Good Word, you're pretty lazy, not to mention incompetent. Fortunetely, there's plenty of more sensible people who can explain Christianity better than you -- too bad you wouldn't accept them as Christians, since their beliefs aren't EXACTLY like yours.

If I ever want to increase my understanding of Christ's wisdom, I'll know where NOT to turn.

16

"If I ever want to increase my understanding of Christ's wisdom, I'll know where NOT to turn."

Yet you're still here, day after day. There must be some pathology at work here.

17

Charity
I also think that Tim gave a good first answer and wholeheartedly support him in this issue of the church being a more discerning people by being a more biblically-thinking people.

A few thoughts:
Wisdom is the truth of God’s Word applied to life situations; discernment is the fruit that such consistent application yields.

But we (I) must remember too that this is not an arrogant thing, but a cause for humility. Discernment is not the by-product of man’s own diligent efforts or abilities. In our walk with the Lord, biblical discernment comes from the ministry and work of the Holy Spirit in the life of every believer through God’s Word in which He gives us divine wisdom, guides us into truth, teaches us, and equips us to live circumspectly in all matters of life and godliness (2 Peter 1:3-4).

This is the backdrop of Heb. 5:14: good and evil contextually is referring to sound and unsound doctrine (i.e. truth and error).

Se we could say, biblical discernment is the exercise of our senses resulting from faithfully reading, studying, craving, obeying, meditating, praying, memorizing and submitting to His Word and to the Lordship of Christ throughout our years so that we are made wise (Psalm 19:7-9) and given the ability to recognize doctrinal departure (no matter how miniscule) from the standard of God’s perfect Word to a lessor standard. Discernment is greatly needed and given to us by God (Prov. 2:2-5; 1 Kings 3:9; James 1:5; John 16:13) for usually, deviation from the truth of Scripture happens in very subtle and cunning ways.

18

I -- and plenty of other people of all faiths, and even a few atheists -- see a God far more wise,

my emphasis added, btw

Hands up all ye atheists that envision the existence of a God

This presents a paradox that should be endlessly entertaining... theists invading the ranks of atheists... Madeline Murray O'Hare must be rolling over in her grave... oh wait

19

Robert
You and Raging Bee have made some amazing statements and raised some important questions. I would like to digress a bit to your first comment here. I do agree with you that this story of Abraham and Isaac is not primarily about justice and mercy, but I think it is about devotion, worship, honor, and reverence.

To begin with:
Infanticide is the slaughter of babies usually under one year of age. It is the practice, by some societies, of the senseless killing of unwanted children soon after birth. Partial birth abortions or live abortions would be the equivalent in our day; and our nation is surely guilty of this inhuman practice.

However, this does not describe in the slightest degree the scenario between God's command to Abraham regarding his twenty+ year old son, Isaac. What we can always discern about God is what is always true from the Scriptures that God has always said about Himself: He is holy, perfect, cannot lie, loving, merciful, just, full of grace and compassion, doing all things according to the good intention, counsel and pleasure of His eternal will, and is absolutely Sovereign over the affairs of all His creatures for our good and His glory. He is immutable in His nature and character; He does not change; nor can He be influenced by man to alter His perfect divine purposes in all that He does.

God's holy intention with Abraham was not the death of Isaac, but the testing of the faith, obedience and devotion of Abraham to God over that which he treasured and loved most on this earth - his one and only son. IOW, did Abraham fear God greater than he loved his own son?

To kill Isaac would have ended the promise of the Abrahamic Covenant and such action would have seemed irrational to him. But as a matter of unwavering faith and trust in God, he obeyed Him. It was not the death of Isaac that was the ultimate purpose here; but the testing of Abraham’s devotion to God - a test of worship and reverence. Through the angel of the Lord, God intervened and commanded Abraham not to kill his son, but provided a substitute, a ram... caught in the thicket by its horns. In the end Abraham feared the Lord God... (divine respect, reverence, and honor).

This was the first real vivid illustration in Scripture of the future divine substitute God provided for us in the Lord Jesus Christ - “the Lamb of God, which takes away the sin of this world.” Man’s own sacrifice can never appease the wrath and justice of a holy God. Only God come in the flesh in the person of Jesus Christ the Righteous, could save us from Himself. In that respect, Christ died for God; so that now by grace through faith in Jesus Christ the Lord alone, we have the unshakable promise and hope of salvation, the forgiveness of sins, eternal life, and peace with God forever.

IOW, we are great sinners; but He is a greater Savior! And that is good news.

You can read the entire account here. (Genesis 22).

And these things are spiritually appraised. (1 Corinthians 2:14-16).

I am so grateful that God didn't leave us in our sins, but has provided a way for us to have hope beyond death.

Thank you for letting me jump in on this discussion...
Grace and peace to you,
Steve
2 Cor. 4:5-7

20

Ragging Bee,

Thanks for the reply. I’m sorry for the hurt that, since this post is in response to discernment, many Bible-thumpers lack of discernment has inflicted upon you. I would like to ask forgiveness on their behalf, for the imperfect balance of Love and Truth the expressions of their Christianity have included. I hope I can represent them to you because I’m sure my sin has also greatly discolored the expression of my Love for Christ, in trying to share Him with others, in many of the same ways that many Bible-thumpers, and possibly a few of the posts here, have negatively affected you. I ask your forgiveness. I hope you can forgive us.

Thanks,
Scott

21

smmtheory: It should be obvious to you, from my use of the word "see" as opposed to "believe," that I meant to say that many atheists are aware that others believe in Gods far better than that of the Bible-thumpers. If you're looking for a "paradox," you'll have to keep looking.

Scott: the ignorant Bible-thumpers have inflicted no hurt on me -- they've just hurt a lot of other innocent people throughout history, and continue to do so, and have exposed themselves as brain-dead uncaring charlatans. If you're willing to admit such errors, as you just did, then you have thereby set yourself apart from them, and shouldn't lump yourself with them. I can forgive you because you ask for forgiveness and at least pretend you might be willing to change your ways; the same does not apply to the others.

...I’m sure my sin has also greatly discolored the expression of my Love for Christ...

Um...can you be a little more specific? What particular "sin" are you asking me to forgive? And what definition of that vague word "sin" are you using anyway?

22

smmtheory: It should be obvious to you, from my use of the word "see" as opposed to "believe," that I meant to say that many atheists are aware that others believe in Gods far better than that of the Bible-thumpers. If you're looking for a "paradox," you'll have to keep looking.

hmmm... let's compare

"I -- and plenty of other people of all faiths, and even a few atheists -- see a God far more wise,..."

to

"I -- and plenty of other people of all faiths, and even a few atheists -- believe a God far more wise,..."

oh, okay, now I get it... you don't believe in God either, just that you are aware that others believe in Gods far better than that of the Bible-thumpers. If that's not the case though, then that's another paradox aside from the one I came up with about the theists invading the ranks of the atheists.

23

Ragging Bee,

My specific sins? They are many, and there are daily. Specifically, as I’ve said, in trying to express my love for Christ I’ve failed to balance the truth and love (or grace) of Christ (as stated in John 1:14). To be less abstract, in James 1:19 God has let us know we should be quick to listen and slow to speak and slow to anger, I’ve often done the opposite. And when I did listen, it wasn’t to know the heart of the other person, but to prove the point. In Colossians 4:16 God has told us to have our conversations full of grace, and seasoned with salt. I have often had my conversation full of salt and seasoned with grace. I could go on and on. I hope I’m maturing.

But the particular “sin” I’m asking you to forgive me/us for is, as you said, being lazy and incompetent, or as I see it, to get more to the heart of the matter, our pride.

My definition of sin could be long and convoluted, but I’ll try to simplify it. Sin is not trusting God, not believing what God has told us about Him and ourselves through his creation, other people, history, and most of all through his Son, and my Lord, Jesus Christ and His Holy Spirit, which is most clearly revealed in His Love Letter to us, the Bible. To put it another way, sin is trying to assume a role that is not rightfully ours; to be God in our life and the lives of others; to think we know better than God and to be in Control.

You said that at least you pretend you’re willing to change. I hope I have, and continue to change, because God knows I have and so, so, so, so, so much more to change to be at all like Christ. So that would be another thing I would ask you to forgive me/us. Our unwillingness to change when it is present, how slow we’ve been to change, and how slow we’ve been to confess and repent of our many wrongs.

You said I shouldn’t lump myself in with them. But I must, I’m a sinner like they. I may not commit the same sins, but sins against others and always against God none the less. Which seems to me to be something both you and I can be extremely thankful for; the sin we see in ourselves, the others in this blog, and everyday around us in both Christian and nonChristian, since it’s another opporturnity to see Christs’ greatness in the price he was willing to pay to forgive us.

Thanks,
Scott

24

Sin is not trusting God, not believing what God has told us about Him and ourselves through his creation, other people, history, and most of all through his Son, and my Lord, Jesus Christ and His Holy Spirit, which is most clearly revealed in His Love Letter to us, the Bible.

Okay, that's a definition I can at least work with. The only disagreement I have here is that, in my experience, God's will and wisdom is not always most clearly revealed through the Bible. In fact, many times I've had to look to real-world events (personal or otherwise) and other holy texts to complete a picture that the Bible does a less-than-satisfactory job of painting.

This is, in my opinion, a mistake too often made by certain Christians: they're too quick to look to the Bible for THE definitive answer on some issue, and not at all willing to look for insight or evidence elsewhere that might give a more complicated or troubling answer than what they've already got from the Bible. There's nothing "un-Christian" or "anti-God" about admitting an obvious fact: that God and his creations are far too complex to be adequately described in any single book.

More later, maybe...

25

Robert Duquette wrote:

Justice has nothing to do with it. Is it just to condemn all souls to Hell because of the sin of one man? No it isn't. Collective justice isn't justice, neither is disproportionate justice. According to you Christians no person is capable of earning salvation, no matter how good a life he leads. The tiniest sin is equivalent to the most heinous, for both earn an eternity of unrelenting anguish. And that tiniest sin is committed by the mere act of being born.

One by one...

Is it just to condemn all souls to Hell because of the sin of one man?

False assertion. Actually souls are condemned to hell for rejecting the salvation in Christ whom God provides.

John 3:16-18

16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

17 "For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him.

18 " He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
NASU

Collective justice isn't justice, neither is disproportionate justice.

False assertion. Those who accept Christ are not judged at all. Those who reject Christ are judged "each according to his works." The judgment is proportional and just, with varying degrees of punishment according to each man's deeds.

Luke 12:46-48

46 the master of that slave will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he does not know, and will cut him in pieces, and assign him a place with the unbelievers.

47 "And that slave who knew his master's will and did not get ready or act in accord with his will, will receive many lashes ,

48 but the one who did not know it, and committed deeds worthy of a flogging, will receive but few. From everyone who has been given much, much will be required; and to whom they entrusted much, of him they will ask all the more.
NASU

According to you Christians no person is capable of earning salvation, no matter how good a life he leads. The tiniest sin is equivalent to the most heinous, for both earn an eternity of unrelenting anguish.

I've already addressed the fact that hell is not a monolithic "one size fits all" punishment, any more than all will receive the same rewards in heaven. You are absolutely correct that we cannot earn or deserve salvation. Salvation is provided as a FREE GIFT of God, by His grace. But we must accept it.

Eph 2:8-9

8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,

9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.
NKJV

And that tiniest sin is committed by the mere act of being born.

Christian orthodoxy holds that children enter heaven, up to the "age of accountability" when they become capable of sinning consciously.

26

Sorry - the wording on that last point was inexact. I should have said:

Christian orthodoxy holds that children enter heaven, up to the "age of accountability" when they become capable of consciously rejecting Christ.

27

Raging Bee is correct, your view of God is too low. Your image of God is of a jealous, egomaniacal, insecure tyrant who requires constant worship and displays of loyalty to convince himself that his rule is not in jeopardy. Your view assumes that God has all of the hangups and insecurities that people have.

We need to recognize the holy perfection of our eternal Creator.

You have no idea what perfection means. You just assume that people that we call “perfectionists” represent how God thinks and behaves. Perfectionists are not perfect. They are not even admirable. They are sick. Perfectionism is a character flaw.

Hopefully then we will also recognize that every moment of our lives where we do not give Him first place is a terrible affront to Him and deserving of damnation.

Why deserving of damnation? Again, why is God so insecure that he needs constant praise and attention?

Each and every day we choose our way over His and pursue our desires in place of His will. Each of us deserves death and hell.

I have no problem with death. It has nothing to do with deserving it, it’s just how the universe works. But why do we all deserve hell? Sorry, but I have enough self-esteem to resist buying into your inhuman philosophy.

28

Ragging Bee,

Some of the points you made about God’s creation and complexity making it impossible for one book to deal with adequately are confusing to me. I’m not quite sure I understand since, it seems to me, the bible makes it clear that adequacy is not the bible but God speaking in the bible through the Holy Spirit. Could you elaborate that some, I really would appreciate it.

Thanks,
Scott

29

Every new book purporting to explain the Bible or some biblical doctrine is a new admission that reading the Bible itself is insufficient for understanding Christianity. How else do you explain 33,800 denominations, each following the same holy book and each claiming to have interpreted it most accurately.

30

Scott: my best hasty answer right now is to echo what ex-preacher said; and to repeat the obvious fact that the Bible does not answer all of the specific questions we may have about our lives or our world. For all the rest, we need to use our judgement, our rational abilities, our observations of the material world, our experience, the advice of others wiser than ourselves, the odd revelation or answered prayer, etc. etc.

31

Raging Bee,

As I read your reply, you mentioned, to answer my question, you would echo what the ex- preacher said, yet he seems to be saying that the bible is sufficient, and unless I’ve misunderstood, you said it was not. The ex-preacher seemed to be alluding to man’s inherent sinful nature creating the division, not the inadequacy of the Bible.

As I said in my relationship with God, through Christ in the power of the Holy Spirit, what I’ve experience is the opposite of what you’ve called an obvious fact; the bible has answered all the specific questions I’ve had about my life and the world. Many times I have not liked the answers, most times the answers have been hard to assimilate, especially when I first accepted Christ and had to relinquish the throne of my life to him. Overcoming my lack of Trust and Unbelief has been a long painful process for me.

From your previous responses to others, it’s a possibility you and others might be thinking I don’t ask many questions, study much outside of the bible, or think to deeply. That may to true, but I do know my wife is constantly complaining that I ask too many questions, think way too much, and need to do something other than read. Personally, I think I ask many questions and think very deeply about these things. So, I hope what I’ve said about God answering all my specific questions doesn’t seem insincere or dishonest. So far, the Bible, through Christ in the power of the Holy Spirit, has been adequate for me to know God and hear his voice. To Me the inadequacy of the bible comes through our Sin, or as I said before; our desire have our own way, to play God in our lives and the lives of others, to try to be in control of what is not rightfully ours to control.

Also, I hope you don’t think from my response here I don’t think the other things you said - our judgement, our rational abilities, our observations of the material world, our experience, the advice of others wiser than ourselves, the odd revelation or answered prayer, etc. etc. – don’t factor in. I just don’t think revelation or answered prayer is odd, if understood biblically.

I know I’ve said a lot, but considering what I’ve said here, since you had asked me, I would really appreciate it if you would give me your definition of sin in a specific way and what you think about what I’ve said.

Thanks,
Scott

32

I think I have failed to communicate clearly. The Bible is a mishmash of conflicting doctrines. Somehow almost everyone in the world can agree on such human originated codes as the FIFA rules for soccer, the standard rules for chess, and the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, but the supposed divine word of God has produced 33,800 denominations. Each denomination's adherents are fully convinced that they are right and everyone else is wrong and possibly hell-bound.

Is one group right and the other 32,799 wrong? If so, which group is right and how is everyone else so wrong? Are they stupid? Or dishonest? With so many sincere and intelligent believers disagreeing on virtually every doctrine yet claiming to follow the same book, the only logical conclusion is that the fault is in the book.

Let me give an example based on U.S. history. During the American Revolution, the vast majority of Americans were Christians of one stripe or another. The rebels cited the Bible (often the book of Judges) to justify taking up arms to overthrow a tyrant. Loyalists cited the Bible (usually Paul in Romans 13 and Jesus in the Gospels) to argue that Christians should be subject to the government and fight for the Crown. Meanwhile, Quakers and Mennonites cited the Bible (mainly Jesus) to argue that Christians should never take up arms for any reason. Each group was fully convinced that the Bible clearly supported their postion. So, Scott, which group was right?

33

"...the supposed divine word of God has produced 33,800 denominations."

No, people have produced the denominations. The Bible has only produced believers. The Bible teaches that mankind suffers from corruption, so it is hardly surprising that the Bible would be perverted to suit man's multitude of sinful proclivities. Many Christian denominations have comparatively minor differences concerning church government and style of worship, while still holding to the basic tenets of the Christian faith.

Each denomination's adherents are fully convinced that they are right and everyone else is wrong and possibly hell-bound.

Except for the universalists, who hold that everyone is right and no one is going to hell.

As a Baptist, I don't have the feeling that the Methodists and Presbyterians, Anglicans or Amish have condemned me to hell.

You see what you want to see.

34

Ex-preacher hit the nail on the head. The Bible is a grab-bag of ready made justifications for just about any moral decision. The question is, what can't be justified by the Bible? To cite another example, during the Civil War both northern and southern Christians both used the Bible to justify their own positions on slavery. As a Baptist, Scott, you should be aware that this is what caused the split in your own denomination. But as President Lincoln said, God cannot be both for and against the same thing.

Scott, saying that man's sinful nature is at fault just reinforces the futility of appeals to the Bible, or any external "objective" standard of reference. In the end all moralities are subjective, whether religiously based or secular. The fervent Bible believer has no advantage over the secular "relativist" in this regard. The 33,000 denominations shows the hollowness of calls to "take back the nation for Christ". Who's Christ? Pat Robertson's Christ or Jesse Jackson's Christ? Or Fred Phelp's Christ?

35

Sorry, my comments were meant for Jeff, not Scott.

36

Robert,

The beauty of it is, that we will all be judged individually. It is our own responsibility to evaluate our decisions and conduct in the light of God's Word. "I was just following the lead of the Baptists" or "the slave owners" is not going to cut it. So perhaps there is some small bit of agreement here.

Anyone who used the Bible to justify slavery was wrong in doing so. Are you completely forgetting that slavery was eliminated in Western civilization due entirely to fervent Christians working and pleading for this great good? The abolitionists were Christians.

It is the same with abortion. The evil of abortion is clear. Who stands in opposition? The church. There are some who try to twist abortion into a good. They will use any mode of justification available to them, including the Bible, if possible. Surely the truth is not that hard to discern.

To make justification of one's actions the goal of reading the Bible is a perversion. Rather, our actions and attitudes are to be brought into accord with the Bible.

To make moral relativism the Bible's co-equal is silly. The plain reading of scripture is clear. Stealing is wrong, coveting your neighbor's possessions is wrong, murder is wrong, adultery is wrong... These things are hard to understand?

37

Are you completely forgetting that slavery was eliminated in Western civilization due entirely to fervent Christians working and pleading for this great good? The abolitionists were Christians.

As well as the slaveholders. Christians were stopping slavery perpetrated by Christians. Unless you have a census of every abolitionist that records his/her religious preference, then your statement of exclusive Christian participation in the the abolition movement is an exaggeration. For instance, there is no evidence that Abraham Lincoln was a Christian. Are you saying that there were no Jews, Deists or Freethinkers in the abolition movement?

To make moral relativism the Bible's co-equal is silly. The plain reading of scripture is clear.

Not with the Bible, with Christians. Books don't sin, people do. And with regard to morals all people are subjectivists. There's no way around it. People obey their inner, subjective moral feelings. The Christian is no different than the Atheist in this regard. The Bible can't give you a leg up because you will only take from it an affirmation of whatever moral instincts you already posess. If your inner conscience has no qualms about slavery, then the Bible is not going to convince you otherwise. It's just a prop.

Stealing is wrong, coveting your neighbor's possessions is wrong, murder is wrong, adultery is wrong... These things are hard to understand?

No, they're not. You don't need a Bible to figure these things out, if you have a conscience. But there are plenty of instances of divinely justified murder in the Bible, so if your conscience allows you to make an exception for yourself, there is plenty of material in the Bible to cover your tracks with. Didn't God acquiesce to genocide when Joshua led the Israelites in their conquest and annihilation of Canaan? The Bible is full of loopholes, and every sinner is a lawyer at heart when it comes to his own interests.

38

Robert,

The abolitionists appealed to society on the basis of justice - justice and argumentation based on the Bible. They were successful in changing many minds. Informing people of the horrible conditions on slave ships and so forth also helped elicit people's compassion.

Many resisted the call to abolish slavery because it threatened them economically. They placed their own self interests above moral principle. It is no different today. We are ill advised to sit in self-righteous judgment of past generations.

You have a good grasp of human behavior, man's sinfulness, and his tendency to reinforce his own desires. I can only say that you are wrong that the Bible does not give a leg up. Selfish tendencies can be overcome through God's help. Many of us choose the good over our own desires. The conscience of which you speak is also a gift from God.

...there is plenty of material in the Bible to cover your tracks with.

This should read: There is plenty of material in the Bible to deceive yourself with. You are really not covering your tracks at all. Such a person will answer to God for their duplicity.

Your premise seems to be that our own selfishness will always trump what is good, except perhaps to the extent that our own conscience convinces us otherwise. I have to disagree. If a person is familiar with the Bible and its teachings, those teachings will prompt them to do the right thing at the appropriate time.

The Bible is more than just a behavioral code. It also shows us the plan of creation and salvation. For those who are saved, the Holy Spirit empowers them to rise above themselves. I have no chance of persuading you, but it has been an interesting discussion anyway.

39

BTW Robert,

I want to remind you that the slave system was the world-wide status quo. The appeal to abolish it was a new paradigm based on religious revival.

40

The abolitionists appealed to society on the basis of justice - justice and argumentation based on the Bible. They were successful in changing many minds. Informing people of the horrible conditions on slave ships and so forth also helped elicit people's compassion.

In other words, they didn't rely solely on Bible-based argumentation; they spoke of objective and verifiable facts, and appealed to their fellow citizens' independent moral reasoning, to convince them that slavery caused all kinds of harm that no one wanted to suffer themselves.

41

RB,
Of Course. Are you saying that the God given ability to use and respond to reason should negate Biblical authority? That doesn't hold water. Jesus routinely appealed to people based on the written word as well as reason. See just about any parable. The Parable of the Good Samaritan jumps to mind - one of the most beautiful illustrations in written history. I can well imagine this was part of the abolitionists arsenal.

42

Ragging Bee,

I would love it if you could read entry 31 and respond.

Thanks,
Scott

43

Are you saying that the God given ability to use and respond to reason should negate Biblical authority?

If a particular interpretation of the Bible clearly contradicts reason, observable fact, or common sense or decency, then that interpretation is thereby negated and has no authority. Unreason and falsehood have no authority, regardless of their origin.

That doesn't hold water.

What's your alternative -- mindlessly spouting Bible verses without regard to reality? That holds even less water, which is why so many Christians reject that "approach."

In reply to Scott:

The ex-preacher seemed to be alluding to man’s inherent sinful nature creating the division, not the inadequacy of the Bible.

No, he was alluding to the fact that the Bible simply does not, cannot, and is really not intended to, answer every policy question humans have had to ask. Therefore, we need to use our own reason, observation, experience, and judgement, in addition to the Bible, when dealing with all the issues of this world.

Many times I have not liked the answers, most times the answers have been hard to assimilate, especially when I first accepted Christ and had to relinquish the throne of my life to him.

It sounds like you're trying to pretend that the Bible has all the answers, and if you don't like the answers, it's your fault for not "relinquishing the throne of your life" -- i.e., thinking for yourself. If that works for you, fine; it's your life, and so far, you're not harming me. But I've too often heard that con-game used to discourage people from questioning this or that "official" statement from this or that "spiritual leader;" and all it ends up meaning, is that the "flock" have to "relinquish the throne of their life" so that the "leader" can stay on the throne of his life and get away with doing whatever he wanted.

Jesus himself warned all of us to be aware of "false prophets;" and that, in turn, requires applying independent judgement to all that we hear.

I would really appreciate it if you would give me your definition of sin in a specific way...

I don't use the word at all, because there are so many different definitions, and those who use the word flip about from one definition to another -- often within the same sentence -- as so many commenters have done here. If a word includes everything, then it really defines nothing, and has no use in honest discourse.

Those who make the most use of the word "sin" use it mainly as a means of demeaning everyone (except themselves, of course), in order to bully us into accepting their religion, when they have nothing else to offer. They are, in effect, taking away our self-worth, then trying to sell it back to us in the guise of "salvation" from their God.

I much prefer more concrete words such as "incompleteness," "ignorance," or "disconnection from the Divine."

44

Raging Bee,
After reading your reply I feel sad. Either I didn’t communicate very well, you have a lot of hurt inflicted upon you by “Christians” (probably Christians in name only or immature Christians), for which I’m very sorry, or only part of what I wrote registered in your brain. I know there are many other possibilities but those seemed to me to be the ones with the highest probability.

As I’ve already requested, please forgive us our mistakes, inadequacies or where deliberate, our wrongs and sin.

Relative to my pretending the bible has all the answers, the meaning of relinquishing the throne of your life, not thinking for yourself, and it being a con-game used to discourage people from questioning, I’m sorry because I didn’t think that was what I was communicating. From how you’ve replied what I’m going to say may sound once again like pretending, or repeating myself, so if that is what happens I hope you will forgive me for my inadequacy, but will go to the God of all the universe, who made everything we see or experience, and ask him to reveal the heart of what I’m attempting to relate.

I think questioning is a great thing and I would hope I would never discourage it, but strongly promote it. If what you believe can’t stand up to the scrutiny then what you believe isn’t believable or getting your questions answered must strengthen your belief. I think your point of spiritual leaders suppressing questioning to maintain power is a good one and extremely valid along with many other points you make. But, here’s where I think only part of what I said registered in your brain. As I said before, “I hope you don’t think from my response here (previous reply) I don’t think the other things you said - our judgement, our rational abilities, our observations of the material world, our experience, the advice of others wiser than ourselves, the odd revelation or answered prayer, etc. etc. – don’t factor in. I just don’t think revelation or answered prayer is odd, if understood biblically” and “to me, the bible makes it clear that adequacy is not the bible but God speaking in the bible through the Holy Spirit.”

Many “christians” do mindlessly spout off bible verses, with them I question their maturity and/or their actual relationship to God, but the answer to those questions are not mine to answer. Their relationship to God is for God to judge, mine is to Love and seek God and Love my neighbor, which I fail at many times, and in many ways due to my sin, and which encompasses many things,. One of which is relating to them and correcting them within that relationship. The point is, it’s about God, not the many “christians”, and if he created you and me with all our complexity, and he created the entire universe with all its’ wonder and complexity, he certainly can answer all our questions if we go to him. It’s not “mindless”, it’s about going to the mind much greater than all minds combined. So it’s not about the bible, but the God of the bible and our relationship to Him. We get to know him through the Christ of the bible through the power of the Holy Spirit. He gets to know us through Prayer. He speaks to us through the Holy Spirit. We must seek him, and get to know his Voice (John 10).

To me it comes down to, do you really believe? If you do, then seeking God first is not as you stated “ without regards to reality” but the ultimate reality, or as you stated, maintaining the connection to the Divine, who is not mindless, but going to Him whose mind knows ALL. Unbelief is sin or disconnection from the Divine. Yes, much has been done in the name of God, that is not of God, in other words from sin or disconnection.

That is again why I say some things didn’t seem to register in your brain or maybe even worse because of sin or "incompleteness," "ignorance," or "disconnection from the Divine.” It seems that reason, observable fact, common sense, decency, experience, and judgment come before the God of the bible, or worse, in place of the God of the bible and his Holy Spirit. To me Genesis 1:1 tells me where to go to find the answers, and why so many “christians” have done so many wrongs, and why so many “christians” spout off mindlessly without regard to reality. If there is a God then that’s who will have the answers.

I feel and think you have been harmed deeply by “christians” sin or, "disconnection from the Divine.” One of the reasons I say that is because, to me, your responses seem to contradict your own worldview, which maintains that answers come from reason, observable fact, common sense, decency, experience and many Holy books. Well most Holy books speak of sin and forgiveness so reason or common sense along with observable fact or history makes it clear you’re a sinner just like all the people you have disagreed with on this blog, in some cases not to kindly. So by your worldview you need to be much more forgiving and much more understanding, but you don’t come across that way. That’s why I say you’ve been hurt by Christians sin, and they like you they do sin, which is why they need a Saviour. These statements don’t excuse them or you. I also think you will misunderstand some of these statements, but I’ve written so much already.

I hope and pray you’ll read this in its’ entirety and reply. I pray for you Ragging Bee.

In Christ,
Scott

45

Scott: first the minor point: when you (repeatedly) allude to some unspecified "hurt" I must've suffered, you seem to be implying that I'm suffering some sort of mental or emotional disorder that makes me less rational than yourself, and thus implicitly disqualifies my arguments here. It's really a bit insulting, and makes you look like you're trying to pretend I'm less than your equal in this debate. (The appearance of intent to insult is reinforced by your repeated misspelling of my handle.) If my interpretation of your words is wrong here, then please accept my apologies -- and explain what you REALLY meant.

(Also, note that I myself am not trying to avoid responsibility for my words by hiding behind some "I was hurt or traumatized" excuse. If you're trying to be nice or forgiving, then thanks for the good intention, but it's not necessary.)

Now the major bit: it appears that most of our dispute is caused by specific choices of words. This does not make the dispute less significant, of course, since words, and the emotional/experiential baggage they carry, are important.

Relative to my pretending the bible has all the answers, the meaning of relinquishing the throne of your life, not thinking for yourself, and it being a con-game used to discourage people from questioning, I’m sorry because I didn’t think that was what I was communicating.

I understand this, but the specific words you used are manipulative and have indeed been used by others to support religious con-games and discourage free thought and inquiry. Instead of talking about "relinquishing the throne of your life," perhaps you should have spoken in more concrete terms such as "opening your mind to wiser counsel and taking your ego down a peg," which I agree is something everyone should do, and which is a major component of finding contact with the Divine. That is, I suspect, what sensible Christians mean by "relinquishing the throne of your life," but that phrase has other connotations that have no place in honest spiritual discernment.

I think questioning is a great thing and I would hope I would never discourage it, but strongly promote it.

On that we're agreed. And from that comes the conclusion that it's possible for different people to arrive at different -- and equally sincere -- understandings of what their common doctrine means, without one being "right" and all others being "wrong" or "heretical."

Many “christians” do mindlessly spout off bible verses, with them I question their maturity and/or their actual relationship to God, but the answer to those questions are not mine to answer.

Actually, to a large extent, such questions are indeed ours to answer: our own spiritual needs require us to judge all that we hear, make use of what is valid, and criticize all that is invalid. People who say things we find idiotic may still go to Heaven, but we still have to judge their words and deal with their consequences here on Earth -- at least to the extent of covering our own asses and preventing diversion from our own proper paths.

It seems that reason, observable fact, common sense, decency, experience, and judgment come before the God of the bible, or worse, in place of the God of the bible and his Holy Spirit.

No, but they may come before or in place of a particular person's belief about "the God of the bible and his Holy Spirit." And if he doesn't have a better grasp of the particular worldly or spiritual issues involved, and is not willing to openi his mind to new data, he's likely to think I'm "against" his God.

...to me, your responses seem to contradict your own worldview, which maintains that answers come from reason, observable fact, common sense, decency, experience and many Holy books. Well most Holy books speak of sin and forgiveness so reason or common sense along with observable fact or history makes it clear you’re a sinner just like all the people you have disagreed with on this blog, in some cases not to kindly.

I'm sorry, but this statement is kinda muddled. For starters, the other holy texts I've read 'speak of "sin and forgiveness"' using very different terms (that choice-of-words issue again), and I prefer their terms ("imperfection," "enlightenment," etc.) because I find they address the same issues in a more sensible and spiritually useful manner, with a lot less extraneous extra connotations and misleading implications. Also, you're taking bits of certain holy texts as premises, and basing all reasoning on those premises; which isn't always what a sensible person needs to do.

In Odin et al,
Da Bee

46

Raging Bee,

I’m so, so, so sorry for misspelling your handle. It was not intentional, it was something I didn’t pay close enough attention to the first time, then continued to repeat the error until you brought it to my attention. Please forgive me.

Honestly this the first time I’ve ever commented on a blog. So, I really wasn’t trying to debate you. It’s when I read these things, and I do read them a lot, I learn a great deal from the wide range of opinion and information shared. The only thing is it seems to me that a great majority of the time, the people commenting are talking at each other, trying to defend their position, trying to impress people with their vast knowledge and ability to express it, or angrily trying to prove their point, not talking to one another. As you’ve probably surmised by know, I’m not the greatest communicator, so as far as you being less than my equal in this debate I’d say two things. First, to me the opposite is obviously the truth, if this is a debate, I’m not near your equal. Second, I wasn’t trying to debate, at least I hope not. I was trying to engage, and understand, and share my heart. And yes I was hoping to persuade by sharing my heart, and to some degree connect or relate. So I hope I wasn’t trying to debate, although maybe that’s how it came across, or I possibly I was and I’m blind to it.

As far as the mental or emotional disorder, I definitely don’t think you any less rational than me. I also don’t think you have any mental or emotional disorder, other than being human. To me you do come across as hostile and angry, although as I’ve stated so do the vast majority of people commenting on blogs when there is disagreement. It seems to me there is a great lack of engagement, attempts at mutual understanding, and persuasiveness while there’s a great amount of pride exhibited. So mental or emotional disorder, or implicitly disqualified, definitely not, negatively affected in a normal human way is a possibly. I mean that some “christians” being rude or arrogant, or some other form of unchristian behavior that has had a negative influence in your life. I think we all have blind spots that only others can see and disagreements bring to the forefront. My blind spot in this case my have been I’m debating rather trying to understand and persuade, and maybe I’m confused on what debating is.

So I’m also sorry for being a bit insulting, in which I find your feelings very understandable.

I think you make a great point about the use of words, and how they can be manipulative, and, I would say, misunderstood. I will sometimes use the Christian jargon that can be misunderstood. I could, at this point, replace "relinquishing the throne of your life," with "opening your mind to wiser counsel and taking your ego down a peg,” although to me it doesn’t seem to grasp the transcendence or magnitude.

When you said, in relationship to my comment on questioning, “And from that comes the conclusion that it's possible for different people to arrive at different -- and equally sincere -- understandings of what their common doctrine means, without one being "right" and all others being "wrong" or "heretical."“ I agree people can be sincere in coming to different conclusions, but I believe you can be sincerely wrong. You can be sincere that you thought you calculated your taxes correctly or right believing you didn’t have any taxes to pay, and still be sincerely wrong. And you will still have to pay the taxes and the penalty. Also, I think another way to say “wrong” or “heretical” is eternally destructive, or yours is a good way of saying it, disconnecting you from the Divine, with it possibly leading to eternal disconnection.

You make another great point when it comes to questions and judging the validity of the answers. You said it great so I’ll just repeat it, “our own spiritual needs require us to judge all that we hear, make use of what is valid, and criticize all that is invalid. People who say things we find idiotic may still go to Heaven, but we still have to judge their words and deal with their consequences here on Earth -- at least to the extent of covering our own asses and preventing diversion from our own proper paths.” The thing is I wasn’t referring to questioning their answers or what they said, but questioning their relationship to God, as to whether their connected to God through Jesus Christ’s’ death on the cross for the forgiveness of their sins.

Or to say sins in a way that may be more palatable to you; rejecting God and his ways. Thinking you know better than God. You trying to control things and others you have no right to. Looking to God as the cosmic Jennie (sorry, if the spelling is wrong), rather than the God of all the universe who we need, must depend on, has authority over us, deserves our respect and awe and is just. Being just he can’t tolerate any injustice so to be fair to all, he must have consequences for all disobedience and rejection of his will, which is the very best for us, and therefore “right”. Jesus died so that he/God could be just and the one who justifies (Romans 3:26).

This has been so long that I’ll stop now, although I may not have dealt with all I need to, to make things clear. Hopefully you’ll respond. By the way, what does “In Odin et al” mean.

Thanks,
Scott