1

blah blah blah...sums it all up rather nicely.

2

The only problem is that forgiveness of sins is not the entire gospel. It's part of the gospel and a very important part, but it emphasizes Christ as Saviour and not Christ as Lord. There are 6 references to Jesus as Savior in Paul's letters. There are over 90 references to Jesus as Lord. Where do you think our emphasis should be?

Romans 10:9

3

The words Joe shares with us from Piper--how glorious!

The response--how sad.

re: Lordship, what concerns me is that someone has managed to put a wedge between Christ as Saviour and Christ as Lord, as if these two were competing for our attention. Piper doesn't see it this way, I think. I certainly don't, and I'll take seconds to no one on my need for Christ's Lordship and discipline of His Body.

Jesus didn't save us, after all, in the manner of a child begging daddy not to smoke; or even in the manner of a fireman hosing down the burning house.

He saved us precisely *by* becoming our Lord, by taking His place in His mortal Body, and by dying so that, rather than having to judge us in this life, He may enjoy our fellowship in the Resurrection. We submit to His Lordship to receive His salvation, and vice versa.

So never fault a presentation of the Gospel for emphasizing forgivenness of sins to those who entrust themselves to Christ! And especially not for reminding those who have entrusted themselves to Christ, of their constant need to avail themselves of the goodness they have already received in Him!

Peace,
PGE

4

Wouldn’t it be an amazing thing if [this] could be promoted . . .

Um . . . why?

Out of curiosity I sacrificed 6 minutes of my life to find out what "amazing" preaching is. It's not much. That, I think, says as much as anything about the emptiness of Christianity.

I mean that not as a criticism (whether or not you like it), but as a simple observation. There's really nothing here, but the fact that Christians (I gather) believe that this message, and this man's presentation of it, is "amazing", and presumably powerful and important for others to hear, underscores how low they've set their own bar. Why that should be is another question.

First, he's not really that good a speaker. He has a kind of gentle sincerity that makes him seem less deranged than other hand-waving, shouting evangelicals, which is a good thing, but it's not good speaking style - it's just less bad than the competition. His only technique seems to be a kind of breathless enthusiasm - he's just burstin' to tell you about Jesus, and it truly pains him that you might not hear his message. That kind of thing is alright (in small doses) from a junior-high-schooler just back from Bible camp, but if this is the best preaching available from an intelligent adult Christian, and other intelligent adult Christians think that this childish sleeve-tugging ("You never . . . you never . . . now, listen to this: You never [with repeated double hand-pointing], never, never, never, never, never, never, never, never, never, NEVER get over your need for the gospel!") is a real, substantive engagement on a serious topic, it only justifies their stereotype as silly and simplistic.

Watch some real speakers on an issue they care about. Watch Bill Clinton's nominating speech for Al Gore at the 2000 convention, or Barack Obama's speech at the 2004 convention. These are serious people who openly show how deeply they care while saying substantive and important things to an audience presumed to intelligent and engaged. Do you think either of them imagines that the way to get the most important message in the world across is to repeat the same word 15 times, louder and louder? I was never all that impressed by "child-like faith", but that's not even what this is. It's just childishness. And, again, it confirms my stereotypes: if the best Christian speaker today talks to other Christians like children, and apparently isn't capable of doing otherwise, well, why should I do differently?

Speaking style aside, the content is even worse. Yes, he really, really, really [. . .] likes Jesus, and he thinks you should too. I got it. I guessed that before he started to speak. And that's all he's got to say. He evidently thinks that's enough. But everyone already knows the died/resurrected/love-me-or-I'll-torture-you story. And, yes, you never, never, never [. . .] outgrow it, and, yes, it apparently makes Christians really happy to keep repeating it to each other, but, seriously, shouldn't he have something more to say? In what way is it "amazing" to watch a frantic high school guidance counselor with a combover repeat the same few sentences from the Bible that anyone who's ever watched NFL football on TV has already seen hundreds of times? [As an aside, do you think waving those signs all the time makes you look less childish than John Piper? It just makes you look like you couldn't get a seat on "The Price is Right".] Yes, he thinks it's really important. But, like repeating "never" for emphasis, constantly repeating "Jesus died for your sins" until the audience is ready to kill themselves from boredom doesn't make it any more true.

What's really going on here? He's a scared and very ordinary little man who finds comfort in a storybook. That's OK. He says it right out: he was scared to death over his health, and remembering words from his stories made him feel better. That's touching, and authentic, and very important. Nobody should take that away from him until he himself is ready to grow up and move on. And if others need those stories, too, they ought to have them. But nobody should imagine the stories are true just because they make him feel better - which is essentially the substantive import of his speech. Stepping back a little, and not minimizing his needs, it seems a little strange that so much of the world's time and energy has been used up by adults reassuring each other that their storybook is really true, and threatening to punish those who say otherwise. I think that, in our calmer and more secure moments, it would have been good for us to let ourselves realize the stories aren't true, and find a more adult way to deal with our fears - but, again, those who haven't made it yet should still have the storybook if they need it.

Even so, watching this "amazing" speech only confirms the obvious: Christians need the stories because they're scared of death and the stories make them feel better. I can sympathize, but I'm not likely to take it seriously. More important, the best contemporary Christian preacher just convinced me there's no need to take it seriously. And however accommodating we ought to be of those who do need the stories, we should never let them make rules or policies on the basis of those stories. Piper makes that as clear as ever with the unmistakable emptiness of his message: "I got sick and I was scared and the Bible told me everything would be OK, and I felt better, and there are stories in it that will tell you you will be OK, too, if you have a problem, so you should read it to feel better." It's sad, in a way, that so many people who could otherwise have taken such a forthright place in the world accept that as an explanation of how an adult should live their lives; what Piper proves is that they've not only accepted it but that there's nothing more than that to what they've embraced as their way of dealing with their fears.

What this "amazing" preacher shows us is that, first, it doesn't take much to be an "amazing" Christian preacher, and, what's more, that there's really nothing to the message they're preaching. As he notes, the story really consists of a single sentence - a sentence everyone has hear many times, whether they wanted to or not. And the function of that sentence is simply to make you feel better when you're scared, by telling you that everything is going to be good in the end. There appears to be nothing else to Christianity than that; certainly the best Christian preacher seems to have nothing else to offer. But the bottom line is: Adults know it's not true. That, I think, could stand as the one-sentence message people really ought to hear.

5

"For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. For it is written, “I WILL DESTROY THE WISDOM OF THE WISE, AND THE CLEVERNESS OF THE CLEVER I WILL SET ASIDE.”

6

If this video is intended as an apologetic tool, it will fail, not because of the lack of content, but because of the lack of context. Piper's personal anecdote lacks compelling detail, perhaps making sense to an audience that has heard the whole tale earlier, as he mentions. His plea for sinners to repent doesn't explain what sin is, or what the vague threat of "condemnation" actually means.

In short, Piper here is preaching to Christians, and, more particularly, to the Christians in his church: to people comfortable in and familiar with a shared context. This might make for fine preaching, but poor reaching.

7

Nice marketing ploy to downplay the whole hell thing. When people hear that Piper thinks that people who don't believe this stuff (or worse, aren't elected by God to be saved) will be tortured for all eternity in a lake of burning fire they can be a bit turned off. Somehow the thought of a god who transferred the Jews from Hitler's incineration chambers to a burning torture chamber of no escape doesn't seem very graceful.

8

How can he possibly say that?!? After he constantly teaches about predestination, he can't honestly say "lay down your rebellion" and "simply embrace the gospel that is Jesus Christ."

To be honest he has to say "if God has chosen you, then He will force you to embrace the gospel." or "don't worry about your salvation, if you have been elected then you will be saved, but if not there's nothing you can do about it."

I actually like Piper's stuff, mostly, and think he's a very good preacher.

9

How can he possibly say that?!? After he constantly teaches about predestination, he can't honestly say "lay down your rebellion" and "simply embrace the gospel that is Jesus Christ."

To be honest he has to say "if God has chosen you, then He will force you to embrace the gospel." or "don't worry about your salvation, if you have been elected then you will be saved, but if not there's nothing you can do about it."

I actually like Piper's stuff, mostly, and think he's a very good preacher.

10

How can he possibly say that?!? After he constantly teaches about predestination, he can't honestly say "lay down your rebellion" and "simply embrace the gospel that is Jesus Christ."

To be honest he has to say "if God has chosen you, then He will force you to embrace the gospel." or "don't worry about your salvation, if you have been elected then you will be saved, but if not there's nothing you can do about it."

I actually like Piper's stuff, mostly, and think he's a very good preacher.

11

since i m not permited to add anything else then i ll just rehiterate...

"blah blah blah...sums it all up rather nicely."

12

since i m not permited to add anything else then i ll just rehiterate...

"blah blah blah...sums it all up rather nicely."

13

Oddly enough, even Ludwig, Ex-preacher, and Kevin have been chosen for salvation by the Lord.

(Too bad they turn their own backs to it.)

We'll pray for you guys in the hopes that you see the light.

14

"Oddly enough, even Ludwig, Ex-preacher, and Kevin have been chosen for salvation by the Lord.
(Too bad they turn their own backs to it.)"

Ok i m gonna give it one more try,even though its the 1456439th time....only the most stupid of jack@ss believes he needs to be saved from being HUMAN...and even then...only the truly braindead jack@sses believe that the obviously MAN MADE god of the bable is that saviour...

"We'll pray for you guys in the hopes that you see the light."

your answers were answered before you ever made them...i see the light...every time i flip the ON switch on my bedroom lamp.....nitwit...

15

How about a deal, smmtheory?

You pray for me and I'll think for you.

16

On the contrary: "If your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink. In doing this, you will heap burning coals on his head. Rom.12:20

Jesus paints the picture and Kevin, Ludwig and ex-preacher make it real.

17

Not the best I've heard from Piper, probably an editing error.

You never, never, never, ..., never, never give the Good News (Gospel) without first presenting the Bad News.

The Bad News is that we are all guilty of breaking God's law (the Ten Commandments). Every lie, every word against God, every sexual fantasy (not involving your spouse) is an abomination before God.

I know Piper usually gives the bad news, I've heard him say it: "Everyone you know is guilty before God. I am, you are, the bus driver - all guilty. There has never been a profound thinker on the human condition who said that man is good."

Always remember "Law to the proud, grace to the humble." Otherwise, it is pearls before swine, as we see in the comments above.

18

What Kevin Keith said. I can't add a lot.

But Piper's need to repeat the word never 11 times shows how confused and contradictory the Gospel message is. When you hear someone needing to deny something that stidently, with that much repetition, be certain that there is truth to what is being denied. If the Gospel saves, then why does anyone ever need to use it for anything else? That's the dirty little secret of Sola Fides. If you can acheive salvation by believing alone, then the believer has no need to live a good life. Why else would Piper have to be so adamant in telling other believers that salvation is not enough unless he knew that too many of them were satisfied with their own salvation and not really concerned about anything else. Why should they strive to do anything more than the bare minimum?

It's not the unbeliever who has no incentive to live a good life, but the believer.