We Americans live in such a superficial age that even our opposition to genocide is shaped by political correctness. We claim to believe that “all men are created equal” yet find that not all people are equally worthy of protection. Jim Wallis is a prime exemplar of this tendency to let political sentiment rather than human dignity determine who is worthy of saving. Wallis is the premier faddist of what can be called “genocide chic”: Intervening to oppose the slaughter of Sudanese? “For God's sake, save Darfur.” Intervening to oppose the slaughter of Iraqis? “An offense against God.”
Two months ago, Jim Wallis wrote about his support for military intervention on The Huffington Post:
[Representatives from Evangelicals for Darfur] had complete agreement that only a large and strong multi-national peacekeeping force, with the authority to use "all necessary means," would suffice to end the genocide in Darfur - and that Sudan must be compelled to accept it.
Although Wallis is willing to use military force to protect the people of Darfur, he does not believe the people of Iraq should have been afforded the same protection, In fact, a recent anti-war protest, Wallis denounced the war as "an offense against God" and said that we don’t need a surge in troops but rather, "We need a surge in conscience."
Wallis must have forgotten that one of the justifications for why we went to war with Iraq was precisely to impose a U.N. Security Council resolution similar to the one he supports for the Sudan:
Whereas Iraq persists in violating resolutions of the United Nations Security Council by (4) continuing to engage in brutal repression of its civilian population, including the Kurdish peoples, thereby threatening international peace and security in the region,…
Typical of the UN’s use of euphemism, this “brutal repression” included the systematic slaughter of hundreds of thousands of Iraqis. In fact, the Documental Centre for Human Rights in Iraq documented over 600,000 civilian executions under Saddam’s regime.
I wanted to include a visual representation of what that would look like, but 600,000 dots was more than can be included in a post. Instead this is just 1/12 that total -- one dot for every twelth man, woman, and child that was murdered.
Perhaps Rev. Wallis should take a moment to scroll down--then scroll through eleven more times--and contemplate this tragic number:
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Does that cause Wallis to have a "surge of conscience" or is such a genocide not hip enough for him?
(HT: Trojan Horses)
http://www.evangelicaloutpost.com/mt/mt-trackback.cgi/3457
1
I see your point. It is even more concerning to see terrorists using gas in Iraq now. I really don't like it when Darfur is pitted against another genocidal situation - which you aren't doing in your post, but which I've seen done by some people. Then it becomes a "bash Darfur" exercise. To be honest, Saddam's murdering of Iraqis was not the reason for invasion though. The reason was the perceived threat to the West, in particular the belief he possessed WMD. No govt. wanted to intervene in the years preceding when he gassed tens of thousands of Kurds to death. I agree those deaths were an offence toward God, and the dots in your post are sobering to say the least.
posted on 03.19.2007 2:14 AM2
Well let's be clear, there is a difference between the kind of action Wallis is calling for in Darfur and the kind of action that occurred in Iraq: In Darfur, the military action would consist mostly of placing armed forces between the people being attacked and the people doing the attacking. It would most likely NOT involve wiping out the Sudanese government, and even if it did it would be a direct reponse to violence not in anticipation of it. And even if it did, we have the second major difference - the action by Sudan against those in Darfur is happening NOW, so action now would have the effect of saving the people who are being threatened, without causing any unnecesary loss of life. In Iraq, on the other hand, there was an invasion, the sole purpose of which was to shut down the Iraqi government (unnecessary force, unlike in Darfur) - action which led to an estimated 100,000 Iraqi civilian deaths (a number which we have long since passed, incidentally), not to passively protect people who were under no immediate threat. As a result of the Iraq war, about one third as many people as that estimated 600,000 have died in FOUR YEARS as opposed to the entire length of Hussein's reign. (In fairness, the number is clearly much higher than 600,000. Though we seem to have matched if not well exceeded the pace Hussein was setting, even so. Especially considering that the number of people killed by Hussein skews strongly toward the earlier years than his last years.)
Alright, but I am being somewhat cheap here, since the obvious question is would withdrawing troops NOW increase violence against Iraqis? I'm pretty sure that Wallis' underlying assumption, one that many people opposed to the war share, is that the presence of US forces is actually exacerbating the situation, and resulting in more violence. I would argue it's unfair to complain that Wallis doesn't care about Iraqis if that is his assumption. If it is his belief that withdrawing troops would lead to a decrease in violence (a position which right or wrong, there is certainly a very good argument for), then he is in no way valuing Iraqis differently than those in Darfur. Especially since he opposed the war and its aftermath which led to the death of the first 200,000 Iraqis or so (hard to tell how many might die, at this point).
So please, let's not overstate the case here.
To summarize: "Peacekeeping" (a lousy term, but the best we have), even at the drastic level that is being considered in Sudan, and invading a country preemptively: not the same thing.
(I will grant that I think this is a messy issue, but I'm inclined to think Wallis has gone the right way on both issues. The saying "it is better to be right than consistent" might well apply here.)
posted on 03.19.2007 7:19 AM3
Oh, and incidentally, in case I didn't make it clear enough, like Wallis I was and am opposed to the war in Iraq. I opposed it at the beginning out of principle; I oppose it now on pragmatic grounds - thus, I admit I could be wrong, but I have to go with what I think is the best solution. My point being, the reason I am opposed to the war, and I'm pretty sure Wallis would feel the same, is because of the Iraqi civilians that have died. That was always my foremost concern, as it was for most opponents of the war (it was only later that the people who cared more about military casualty lists than civilian casualty lists got involved...).
And in case anybody doesn't feel like doing the math, assuming 200,000 (I keep using that number - I think it's a good guess based on the studies that have been done and the rate of violence since then) Iraqi civilian casualties, that would be another 16,667 dots.
posted on 03.19.2007 7:24 AM4
Given that Saddam's reign was brutal, it's still an odd kind of "protection" that we've provided for Iraqi civilians.
posted on 03.19.2007 7:49 AM5
The difference, of course, is that the United States actually has some interests in Iraq, and to leftists of the Wallis stripe, pursuing a war for a perceived national interest is a no-no.
It's called oikophobia and in this country is the familiar anti-Americanism of the left, historically and to this day Anglo- and Europhilic.
Incidentally, in retrospect I question the wisdom of the Iraq war, but the lesson to be learned is that in this era we should retrench across the board and avoid interventions of all stripes in countries we don't understand and don't really threaten us.
I nevertheless question the selective anti-interventionistm and infatuation with international organizations of people such as Wallis.
posted on 03.19.2007 8:32 AM6
Did you read the issue of Sojourners, shortly before the invasion of Baghdad, which featured a cover article of "12 ways to remove Saddam from power?"
http://www.sojo.net/index.cfm?action=action.6_point_plan
posted on 03.19.2007 8:48 AM"As urged by Human Rights Watch and others, the U.N. Security Council should establish an international tribunal to indict Saddam and his top officials for war crimes and crimes against humanity."
7
"As urged by Human Rights Watch and others, the U.N. Security Council should establish an international tribunal to indict Saddam and his top officials for war crimes and crimes against humanity."
What a wonderful idea. Leave it to Jim Wallis to really get tough by employing the United Nations to control Saddam Hussein.
I'm sorry, Joe, but trying to talk sense on this issue with people like Wallis and his supporters is impossible. Wallis wants us to pull out of Iraq immediately. What will this giant of compassion say when 600,000 more are killed in the true civil war that will ensue upon our withdrawal?
I know what he'll say. It's Bush's fault.
posted on 03.19.2007 9:15 AM8
Ben:
It would most likely NOT involve wiping out the Sudanese government
What difference does this make? Would someone threatened by a genocidal regime care about this difference? In my opinion, the Sudanese govt. should be wiped out. When Wallis says, "by any means necessary", it implies he doesn't care whether Khartoum is a casualty in his proposed "peacekeeping" effort. Why do you?
without causing any unnecesary loss of life
Really? I imagine you have in mind as model the French peacekeepers in Rwanda or the Dutch ones in Bosnia. Of course, an imaginary military action is always cleaner and more successful than an actual one. Fantasy military operations have that attractive characteristic of being free from unintended consequences. After all, Sudan is a simple country in East Africa with a pacific recent history, right? Right?
Though we seem to have matched if not well exceeded the pace Hussein was setting
You have let slip your underlying assumption - that WE are the ones responsible for 200,000 Iraqi deaths (a figure in much dispute, but I will let that pass). By your reckoning, the responsibility for the slaughter at Srebrenica lies at the feet of the Dutch, not the Serbian militias. And please don't try to escape by saying the Bosnians would have died with or without the presence of the peacekeepers (which would be a curious endorsement of "peacekeepers") - because the same thing can be argued about the Iraqi civilian deaths - when you factor in the effects of UN (let me spell that out UNITED NATIONS) sancations and Saddam's on-going murders.
posted on 03.19.2007 9:32 AM9
Jeff:
I'm not saying I care about what happens to the Sudanese regime as a moral matter (I wish they WOULD go away), and I don't think anyone else is either. I'm saying there's a very practical difference between starting a war with the primary intention of taking out an entire government and one where that would be at most an absolute last resort. And I think Iraq should be a very good deomnstration of the problems with taking out governments wholesale...
As for the possible dangers of a military action, I'm very ambivalent about the use of military force there. I'm not sure it's the right action, but I'm not going to oppose anyone lobbying for it because I don't see ANY alternatives and many, many lives depend on it. The same was most decidedly not true about Iraq in 2003 (as has already been pointed out in this thread).
And when I figure that we are responsible for 200,000 dead Iraqis, I was assuming the first 100,000 at least were directly killed by US weapons (or Iraqi weapons during the initial invasion), so at least that far it would be indisputable that those Iraqis died directly as a result of our actions. So, if 100,000 makes you feel better, feel free to go with it. (Even so, the other Iraqis that have died died in a very predictable - as in many of us DID predict it - outcome of the war. If you engage in an action knowing that certain things are likely or at least possible - yes you do share in some culpability, at least in any ethical system I would want to subscribe to, so yes, I do consider us culpabale at least in significant part. That's not to absolve the people who actually did the killing. We can both be guilty. We both ARE guilty.
posted on 03.19.2007 10:07 AM10
Scroll down the dots again to see the excess Iraqi deaths caused by our invasion and occupation of Iraq. I sure they view us as "strange liberators".
Wow, Joe has really taken the gloves off and ratched things up a notch with this lastest post, but I guess that's what's needed now that mainstream evangelicals are beginning to break ranks with the Focus on the Family/Family Research Council cabal and are seeing them for what they are-namely, demagogues.
posted on 03.19.2007 10:13 AM11
Ben:
I'm saying there's a very practical difference between starting a war with the primary intention of taking out an entire government and one where that would be at most an absolute last resort
I agree there is a huge practical difference. When the government in question is responsible for the threat to innocent life, it makes more sense to target it directly, rather than attempt to interpose peacekeepers between it and its victims.
The same was most decidedly not true about Iraq in 2003
Then would you have supported an invasion of Iraq in say 1988? Or in 1991? Or at least not opposed those who supported it?
the first 100,000 at least were directly killed by US weapons
An assumption that supports your argument, but established by evidence.
posted on 03.19.2007 10:46 AM12
I'm trying to find more details on the claim that 600,000 civilians were murdered by Saddam's regime. So far, I'm not having much success.
Joe cites the "Documental Centre for Human Rights in Iraq" but the link doesn't give any specific breakdown of the numbers or explanation of how they were reached. One source said that this organization was funded by Iran and that 500,000 were casulaties during the Iran-Iraq War.
I would be especially interested to know how many of those deaths occurred in the year prior to our invasion. One big difference between Iraq and Darfur is that the deaths in Iraq had occurred long before any US action. In fact, many of them (most?) occurred during a period that the US was a friend to Saddam Hussein.
posted on 03.19.2007 11:18 AM13
You chide Jim Wallis as being hypocritical for supporting military intervention in Darfur to prevent genocide, but not Iraq. By the same token, are those who supported military action in Iraq for humanitarian reasons, but not Darfur, also hypocrites?
Do you support U.S. military intervention in Darfur?
posted on 03.19.2007 12:02 PM14
Thank you for so clearly lining out the stunning hypocrisy of those who want us to "do something" about Darfur but "do nothing" about Iraq.
I want to "do something," too, I just don't know if we are able to at this time.
posted on 03.19.2007 12:41 PM15
Joe...you really didn't think this one through in the slightest. As has already been noted by other commentators, most of Saddam's atrocities occured when we were all friendly with him because he was opposed to Iran. Even if you are foolish enough to seriously buy the notion that we went into Iraq to stop Saddam's atrocities despite the fact that this justification really only popped up when all the other justifications (WMD, ties to Al Qeada) were throughly debunked, there is no way a reasonable person can legitimately claim that the U.S. has the moral authority to go in there to stop Saddam when we not only stood by when he committed so many of these evils, but actually facilitated them by supplying him with arms.
posted on 03.19.2007 1:38 PMYou really learn some recent history. Really.
Also, just out of curiousity, Joe, do you think we should intervene in Dafrur?
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"Do you support U.S. military intervention in Darfur?"
Yes,
But we don't seem to have the ability to right now! For the Iraq war or not, this lack of ability is a negative about the Iraq war.
posted on 03.19.2007 1:38 PM17
Ok, so intervention in Iraq was good to stop genocide against the Kurds. (Actually, since the first Gulf War Kurds in the north had enjoyed limited protection under the 'no fly zone' and even had some autonomy over their share of oil revenues leaving the Kurdish part of Iraq one of the few somewhat 'nice' places). But what about Darfur?
Joe's only comments to date on Darfur, if I recall, have been this one and a previous post arguing that if Rudy was more pro-life he might have a better Darfur position.
So what is Joe advocating here? He is advocating, basically, ignoring Darfur and focusing on Iraq because a leftist advocates ignoring Iraq and focusing on Darfur.
posted on 03.19.2007 1:40 PM18
"there is no way a reasonable person can legitimately claim that the U.S. has the moral authority to go in there to stop Saddam when we not only stood by when he committed so many of these evils"
Sure we can. We had a change of heart! We realized a past wrong. We decided to correct that wrong. I think that you can argue that this is not the reason we went in Iraq, but to say that we didn't have the moral authority is weak.
So a person that use to use drugs or drink and drive has no "moral authority" to talk to kids about how it is wrong because he did drugs in the past?
England had no moral authority to attack Germany after Germany attacked them because they just stood by when Germany attacked other countries?
I have no moral authority to teach my kids to do right because of all the wrong things i did as a kid?
posted on 03.19.2007 1:47 PM19
Let me quickly respond to a few points:
1. The civilian death toll in Iraq since the war began is roughly 30,000-40,000.
posted on 03.19.2007 2:44 PM2. It is always in our “national interest” to stop genocide. Always.
3. The 600,000 figure are just the executions and do not include the other 500,000 that were killed in the Iran/Iraq war.
4. I don’t care if Saddam committed genocide while he was our “friend.” Wrong is wrong and you correct the problem. The US has a history of wrongdoing but that does not mean that we can’t fix the messes we’ve made.
5. Yes, I support military intervention in Darfur. Specifically, I support--as I've written before--the use of mercenary forces as peacekeepers.
6. I didn't realize that I had never written a post stating my position on Darfur. I shall correct that oversight.
20
Was it a change of "heart?" There is a lot of information to suggest before 9/11 neocons had Iraq in their sights. It was also a mistake to interrupt the war on terrorism to go after Saddam. The administrations own intelligence agency has concluded that the Iraq war has increased terrorism. Go figure, you bomb a person and they become a terrorist.
posted on 03.19.2007 2:45 PM21
So we started the terrorism by attacking Iraq. How do you account for all the attacks going back 20 years and more? Who did we bomb to deserve 9/11?
posted on 03.19.2007 3:15 PM22
I'm not seeing how Iraq/Sudan is an either or situation or worthy or unworthy war victims.
Sudan:
1.5 million have been killed in civil war in Sudan in the past 21 years.
2 hundred thousand have been killed in Sudan since the 2003 US invasion of Iraq.
2 million civilians are displaced, aid groups are unable to get into the border camps to help, 2 hundred thousand are in Chad, a country which is not happy about the influx of refugees.
The 7 thousand African Union 'peacekeeping' troops are
poorly equipped and overstretched. Their mandate expires in June.
The US government has called for UN troops, Jim Wallis is stating the US government position.
There is a third option currently being put forward since the Sudanese government does not want the west involved. The assistance is three fold:
1. 21 million dollars from the UN to provide AU with basic equipment and resources.
2. UN troop and police assistance for the AU.
3. An eventual hybrid of AU and UN forces.
Iraq:
Since the 2003 US invasion:
2 million Iraqis have been displaced fleeing to Jordan, Syria, Turkey and Iran to London and Paris.
1.9 million are internally displaced. The total of Iraq refugess is 16 percent of the countries population.
10,500 are being displaced weekly.
The BBC has released it's latest survey on what Iraq citizens have to say. It is available here: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/6451841.stm
Since Iraq civilian death stats and number of Iraq civilian wounded are in dispute I again direct you to the BBC where you will find graphs for perspective.
Add in the dead to the displaced. 1 in 5 Iraqis.
Unemployment is between 50 to 70 pecent.
Child malnutrition is increasing as access to safe water, electricity and food have fallen below the US invasion levels.
US:
3217 US military are dead.
32,544 are wounded.
Approximately 3 hundred thousand US military vets have returned from Iraq suffering PTSD. Two thirds will not be able to be treated.
295 million dollars is spent each day on the war in Iraq.
295 million would pay a years college tution for over 22 thousand students. It would enable over 35 thousand 3 and 4 year olds to spend a year in the Head Start program.
The money spent on the Iraq war in a month if spent on New Orleans would rebuild the entire city to code.
The money spent by the US government for a week of war in Iraq could feed 6 million children three meals a day for a year, the number of children that die each year from malnutrition.
So much for 'genocide chic'.
posted on 03.19.2007 3:29 PM23
We didn't deserve 9/11, period. I'm saying lets not create more hatred. Iraq had no, or very little to do with 9/11. Saudi Arabia did, and continues to fuel the Sunni insurection in Iraq.
posted on 03.19.2007 4:12 PM24
Behind the scenes we're seeing a shift in America's identity. No longer are we simply enabling the individual (the old Liberal standard, translated to a Marxist dialectic) but today we're taking a step backward, historically speaking, and see the strong arm of government used to enforce American morality (Hegelian). And the "Right" seems to be falling into the same trap as is the "Left", having accepted aspects of the neoconservative (quasi-socialist) agenda. What we have done is confuse our Christian morality with national-interest priority and called that "morality". The Religious Left has acted in an identical manner as has the Religious Right, only with a different theology. The difference is exhibited in our views of Darfur and Iraq.
posted on 03.19.2007 4:33 PMWe need to rethink our politic. Seriously.
25
Jeff:
Means matter. How you fight a war and under what circumstances matter. Leaving the issue of Khartoum alone (after all, in this case you might at least have some justification for taking them out, I suppose), you're right - I might have supported an invasion of Iraq in, say 1988, when Saddam Hussein was using chemical weapons against Kurds. Or, for that matter, in 1990 when he invaded Iraq (at the time I actually was in support of that war, but I had a very different understanding of war back then). The critical problem is that invading is only worth doing if your use of violence is somehow immediately necessary. It's like shooting someone in self-defense, or shooting someone to keep them from shooting someone else. You have to do it at the moment someone is in danger, or else it becomes vigilatism or revenge, neither of which is morally tenable. Now, in the case of international poltics, you could TRY to claim that vigilantism is acceptable, but frankly, all the evidence about the affects of war from history suggests that that sort of military conflict always ends badly, if not now, then some years from now - and Iraq yet again bears that out. And I would submit such a war is always immoral regardless of the effects. What happened to war as a course of LAST RESORT? If you believe in war at all, it would be wise to listen to just war theory, I suppose...
Joe (and Jeff, at least for the casualty numbers):
Lancet's study found 100,000 in the FIRST YEAR. They apparently did a followup study giving numbers much higher in the intervening three years. iraqbodycount.org says between 59,000 and 65,000 - I was surprised the numbers were that low by their count, I hadn't looked at their site in a while. While IBC has a somewhat quirky methodolgy, it at least IS a methodolgy, and without looking in detail at the Lancet study methodology, honestly, I wouldn't be sure what kind of figures to go with. So I admit looking back at the facts that you might be right that my numbers are too high. Unless the Lancet study is right, in which case I was basically right on. At any rate, I would like to know where Joe is getting this 40,000 number. I haven't seen anybody give a number that low. Even Bush himself was buying larger numbers than that. Shoot, just the Baghdad morgue numbers after the initial invasion are pushing 30,000 and that's one city, and doesn't count the invasion. So, I don't see how a number that low is tenable at all.
posted on 03.19.2007 4:40 PMI agree with Joe's point 2. I would agree with 4 - under the condition again that it happen at an appropriate time and not just consist of violence when we get around to it. That's a foolish way to run things, and it's just begging to end up causing more deaths than we're avenging (which is really what it has to amount to in this case - you can't know how many people Saddam Hussein might or might not kill, you have to stand by the fact that war will result in immediate and indiscrimate deaths). And like I said, I might be willing to not only by the numbers Joe gives in point 3, I wouldn't be surprised if they turned out higher, as some have claimed they are. But, especially given when the majority of those numbers occurred, I don't think you can use those to argue for an invasion. And even if those numbers really do average out smoothly over the last 25 years or so of Saddam Hussein's rule, you have the obvious danger of Iraq descending into all out civil war and genocide. Which may very well be what happened. Doesn't anyone ever learn? YOU CAN'T CONTROL WAR. That's why it's something of last resort. That's why you only use military force when there are no other options. And in the case of somebody like Saddam Hussein, that wasn't really a good approach given the overall peace and stability of Iraq. Despite the high number of casualties even in the early 00s, the vast majority of people managed to go about their lives in peace. If we had wanted to do somethin in 1988, we absolutely should have. But that was not 2003. In Sudan on the other hand, something is happening now, and you don't even have to have an all out war to fix it - that is a very different situation than it was in Iraq in 2003, as I am going to continue to maintain. And even if you don't agree with that, surely you can see where very reasonable people COULD feel that way.
26
I admit I sometimes have trouble staying on track. I got so distracted by the historical argument, which is probably not Joe's concern that I forgot about the issue of withdrawal. I said this already but I want to emphasize the point: If you think that withdrawal will save more lives, then you should be advocating that, and could fully do so without being somesort of hypocritical ghoul (assuming that was your real motivation of course). But of course, the converse is also true. You might very well believe that withdrawal would result in wholesale slaughter, in which case you should clearly oppose withdrawal. The problem is on this issue people can go both ways. In the past I definitely favored withdrawal because our presence seemed to be (and based on the one survey of Iraqis I saw done, was believed by them, if I recall correctly) exacerbating the situation. Things have gotten bad enough now though that I'm not as confident anymore. It may be we have crossed some sort of point, in which case those arguing against withdrawal may be right. (Though let's be clear, this is and should be about preventing Iraqi deaths, not "winning" some sort of victory, or conversely, admitting "defeat" - those ships sailed, man.) But what I'm hearing is still a lot of posturing. (And admittedly, I seem to be doing some of that too, but I'm really trying to get the point across that you have to be careful with this stuff. I don't care who was right about Iraq, I want us to be careful in the future. Which is in large part why I don't share Jeff's enthusiasm for all out war...)
posted on 03.19.2007 4:57 PM27
Joe, could you please give me a credible source and methodology used for the 600,000 figure? I have tried and can't find any solid evidence for this.
If these deaths occurred well before our invasion (say in the 1980s), then it is a bit odd to claim that as a reason for invading in 2003.
posted on 03.19.2007 6:40 PM28
I find the whole argument that the US invaded Iraq to stop a cruel dictator not on target. The actions of our provisional government under Bremer, and from words of Douglas Fieth, would indicate they wanted to put their friend Chalabi in power to create a state that would allow the US to get at Iraq's oil. We left Afghanistan in an unstable state. Their country was promised large amounts of aid and when Iraq came along it was forgotten.
"Along with Cheney, Donald Rumsfeld, Paul Wolfowitz, Jeb Bush and Norman Podhoretz, Libby was one of the 25 signatories to the founding statement of Bill Kristol's empire-embracing Project for a New American Century in 1997. PNAC called for an invasion of Iraq long before the 9/11 attack was seized on as the "justification" for that invasion."
http://www.salon.com/opinion/feature/2007/03/06/libby/
posted on 03.19.2007 8:50 PM29
"credible source and methodology used for the 600,000 figure"
Why are we using numbers to decide whether saving people from genocide and torture at one place is better than another? If it was only 10,000 would it be any less important. At what # is protection warranted?
posted on 03.19.2007 10:48 PM30
You tell me, Tim. At what number is a military invasion justified? One thousand? One hundred? Ten? One?
Joe is the one who is trying to make an issue of the numbers involved (remember all the dots?). I'm just asking him to back up his numbers. They may be entirely correct, I don't know.
Personally, I like the idea of using our military power for humanitarian purposes. The fact is that we have rarely done so. The only example that comes near and that jumps to mind is in the former Yugoslavia. I can't imagine that the U.S. would have invaded Iraq without the imagined presence of WMD or the very real presence of oil. As Darfur is lacking both, I don't see this administration launching any sort of intervention.
posted on 03.19.2007 11:27 PM31
"Although Wallis is willing to use military force to protect the people of Darfur, he does not believe the people of Iraq should have been afforded the same protection,..."
Well, by golly, let's liberate the Koreans! The Chinese! Let's shove democracy down the throat of every country we disapprove of.
We should have let the Iraqis solve the Iraqi problem. Iraq posed no threat to the U.S. What poses the biggest threat to the U.S. is stupid foreign policy.
posted on 03.20.2007 12:08 PM32
Just because Mr. Wallis might support putting an end to genicide in Darfur doesn't mean he should support everyone in the world using military force for any reason. You seem to suggest that if Wallis supports military intervention in one situation he is estopped from objecting to any other military action. This makes no sense. I have to wonder what God might be thinking of a world where Christians (i.e. the Christian Right) seem to want to destroy another Christian for speaking out against something he believes to be immoral (the war in Iraq). If a Christian can't speak out against war without harsh criticism from Christians, what has this world come to?
posted on 03.20.2007 10:30 PM33
Connie,
It is *good* that we're able to come out with strong words against one another. Polarization helps refine doctrine and thus practice. Without debate, even heated debate, we'd have a difficult time discerning *truth*. It took a confrontation from heresy to define the Trinity. Go see Amazing Grace for another of the necessary conflicts for discerning and applying truth. It took (is taking) a confrontation from naturalists to define special creation with a solid philosophical and scientific framework.
The open debate that we have, even when harsh, can be ultimately valuable. It's why I've had to rethink and depart from both the Dominionist and Reconstructionist positions on government -- and also question strongly -- sometimes in serious confrontation -- the Liberal and Marxists heresies of the other side. (Klaus Bockmuehl covered there heresy of Marxism nicely. "The Challenge of Marxism" is a must-read.)
The debate may not always be as civil as we might wish, but let's not miss the more important point that people are willing to debate. From that point we may learn and proceed further.
Collin
posted on 03.21.2007 8:59 AMhttp://evangelicalperspective.blogspot.com
34
This war is about Daddy and Oil. The failed attempt to assassinate Bushes father and the Greedy manipulations of our Oil companies. Before the war occurred, Iraq was known to have been divided up into different areas for oil exploration by different countries and companies. With the second largest oil reserve in the world, the temptations were just too great for the Texas Oilmen to ignore. So, they decided to make up a story about WMD's to convince the adoring public to invade Iraq. Just like our government did in Vietnam with the Gulf of Tonkin incident. A pure and total fabrication of the truth to compel the American public to support War. We will never support a War that is based on deception and Lies. In fact, War is totally against the basic tenets of our society. Yet, we have those whose ambitions outweigh their ability to make credible decisions. Those who promote American imperialism for the sake of increasing their company profits.
posted on 03.24.2007 12:18 PMThere is rampant corruption in our government, especially under this Republican administration. This corruption is not only at the Federal level, but also at the local level. I have seen this first hand. Those in charge seem to think they are above the Law. Bush has caused so many problems in this country that it will take years for us to recover. He has destroyed much that is good about this country. He has caused a tremendous amount of suffering in this country and in the rest of the world. I can no longer travel overseas because I am ashamed of being seen as an Ugly American.
And again... it just amazes me that the right wing is sooo idealistic that they can't see their own nose in front of their faces. Out of Touch! Not in synch with the majority. And yet, they holler and scream the loudest. And for What? More hatred and violence!! Again, How dare you push your damn ideology on those of us who really care about this country. I see it as a destructive force to this great Nation. You are of no Help whatsoever! Your understading of humanity is short sighted and shallow.
35
One important difference between Darfur and Iraq is that the US bore a great deal of responsibility for the genocide occuring in Iraq. Recall that we promised the shia that we would support them if they attempted to overthrow Sadam following the first gulf war. We backed out and thousands lost their lives.
A mainline church I attended in the late 90's early 00's posted a petition that we were encouraged to sign calling for an end to the sanctions on Iraq. The claim was that 3000 children were dying every month because of the sanctions (from unicef I think). These sanctions were largely the result of US policy.
Whatever you believe about US policy toward Iraq in the 80's and 90's, we bore a great deal of responsibility for the terror Saddam inflicted on his people (unlike the situation in Korea, Iran, Sudan, Ruwanda, Bosnia, etc...) and for the civilian deaths that resulted from the sanctions we demanded. Iraq is clearly a special case.
This is not to say the war has been handled well, but I don't gather that Wallis is saying this war is immoral because our commanders have applied bad military strategies.
posted on 03.25.2007 5:37 AM36
Let's not forget that there is a huge difference between a UN peacekeeping force and a US led war. Think about what he is saying for half a second.
posted on 03.27.2007 1:24 AMIt is possible to be American and patriotic and think we have screwed up. Let's not polarize the discussion with name calling and the sam old "left or right" rhetoric. There is an increasingly growing Christian demographic who looks at policy based on logic and fact rather than left or right wing propaganda.