1

Great post and great facts.

2

Updated link for #3:
http://www.teenwire.com/infocus/2003/if-20031001p197-anus.php

3

Hi Joe,
Thanks for the linkage and thanks for everything you and the FRC did to with regards to the Blogs4Life conference. I probably should have introduced myself there but I never got around to it. I was the guy with the "former fetus" shirt.

4

Margie Sanger's utter reprehensibility as a human being is more than enough to garner my contempt for her organization.

But the sweet side is that PP's reproductive abnegationistas are mostly, if not universally, Darwinists. Can you spell i-r-o-n-y?

5

[Note: A version of this post originally appeared in January, 2005. My disdain for PP, though, has grown so much over the past two years that I thought this was worth dusting off.]

Or is it more likely you didn't want to work on a Friday and decided to take the lazy way out and do yet another rerun? :)

6

Good stuff. And to think this rephrehensible organization gets our tax dollars!

7

Joe: your (near constant?)disdain for other people is not good for your mental health you know.

8

I added quite a few additional reasons in the comments on JJ's blog.

I think that you can never run out of reasons to hate PP. If you sat and listed them, one by one, you would die of old age before you had listed them all.

9

33. Planned Parenthood of New York City

34. Planned Parenthood of Mid Michigan

35. Planned Parenthood of San Francisco

10

36. This botched abortion

37. Hiring this guy

38. Helping child abusers cover up their crimes

11

The link you give on Margaret Sanger attacks her mainly through the fallacy of guilt by association. She condemned the Nazi anti-Semitic eugenics program. She never advocated abortion. Her emphasis was on birth control, a practice that most Christians at the time opposed. Many other folks in the 1920s and 1930s, including significant numbers of Christians, favored eugenics and racially-based immigration restrictions. Large numbers of evangelicals in that period were strident anti-Semites.

12

You're wrong, ex-preacher. Not only did Sanger advocate abortion (she said it would be a useful way to cut down on the procreation of the "less-advanced" races such as Negroes), but she was a strong advocate for race-based eugenics. Whenever the ample proof for this comes up the PP types spin like a slot machine on payday, but they can't hide the basic facts.

13

Care to provide any evidence for those claims?

14

What is mentioned under #3 is also what muslems do to keep the girls they sell as "virgins".

15

You forgot the tackiness of these:
Chocolate Birth Control Candy

And the fact they had Blythe Danner and Gyneth Paltrow hawking baby onesies as a Mother's Day fundraiser without a hint of irony.

Mama Says

16

PP, the organization I love to hate. Their Canada teen website listed such wholesome activities as fisting, rimming and anal sex as part of a smorgasbord that teens may want to choose from.

They bear false witness about Crisis Pregnancy Centers, presumably because we cut into their business.

But hey, they trot out the "Planned Parenthood Chaplain" who claims Jesus is pro-choice. And they wouldn't lie, right?

Evil. Really, really evil.

17

In 2005, PP set new records for the number of abortions in a single year (255,015) and for the lowest rate of adoption referrals compared to abortions.
____
Why would there be a record number of abortions?
A. Bush taking money from the poor to heap on the rich.
B. Poor people are more scared to have a family.

18

It seems my comment, made long before 3:53 A.M., has been lost.

19

Russell: "Why would there be a record number of abortions?
A. Bush taking money from the poor to heap on the rich.
B. Poor people are more scared to have a family."

That has got to be the stupidest comment I have seen yet. The bottom 50% of earners already pay no taxes, so how is Bush "taking money from the poor?"

Anyone who would murder an unborn child over a disagreement about the tax code and welfare system is just plain evil.

20

ex-preacher: While you are busy demanding everyone else "provide evidence for (their) claims" you may want to provide a little evidence yourself for your unsupported assertions about MS. This seems to be the new tactic amongst the trollerotti around here. Make all sorts of unsupported claims but scream about others making claims that don't have supporting links. This forum is for comments, not a place to write term papers.

21

Attacking Planned Parenthood always strikes me as being akin to railing against the ACLU. It's the mark of a yahoo, a rube, a sucker.

If you've been convinced that this organization works in opposition to the public interest, then you've swallowed some kind of evil bait and are furiously cutting off your nose to spite your face. The fundamental mission of Planned Parenthood is (drum roll please... wait for it... brilliant exegesis follows...) planned parenthood. What a shock.

Of course, it sort of runs counter to the Quiverfull movement. Some of you out there seem to believe that it would be best if a woman became pregnant every time she had intercourse. That a baby is God's punishment for sex. One romp in the sack should - nay, must result in a pregnancy. Each and every time. Always. No exceptions.

OK. If that's how you feel, you're beyond reason. The rest of us, however, think that women are especially responsible for their role in creating and nurturing and building good families. That means making decisions about how many children are in those families. Thanks to the current administration's myopic focus on "abstinence only" education, the role of Planned Parenthood is more important than ever.

A world without this organization would be one with more misery in it. More pain, more suffering. It gives women more control over their lives and a chance at a better future. I guess that's why you guys hate it so much.

22

Cheesehead,
Are you also from Wisconsin?

ex-Preacher,
"eugenics and racially-based immigration restrictions"
That's really a weak relationship and identification.

Enjoy. Go Badgers!

23

Collin: As a matter of fact I am. What gave it away?!? ;)

(BTW I actually am a cheese maker, too.)

24

Cheesehead,
The tax cuts have been hard on the poor and there are tons of evidence to support this.

"The Bush Tax Plan The most recent Bush proposals for "jobs and growth" consist of a package of tax cuts, the centerpiece of which is the plan to eliminate taxation on corporate dividends. The new plan would also accelerate previous Bush tax cuts that were passed in 2001 but are not due to go into effect until later. Bush is also asking Congress to accelerate the elimination of the marriage penalty and last year’s expansion of the child tax credit. Robert Greenstein, Director of the Center on Budget and Policy Priorities, says in a recent analysis that states and working-poor families would likely be immediate losers from the Bush plan. "Working-poor families would lose because they would receive no tax cuts (the plan fails to accelerate the components of last year’s marriage penalty relief and child credit expansion that focus on the working poor), and these families could be adversely affected by deeper state budget cuts and higher interest rates. States would lose because the dividend tax cut would cost state treasuries $4 billion to $5 billion a year, and the plan contains no offsetting fiscal relief."

"Anyone who would murder an unborn child over a disagreement about the tax code and welfare system is just plain evil."

I didn't mean to say this and I would in fact agree with you.

Why do you think abortion rates are getting higher?

( by the way I have no idea how to make cheese but my family consumes mass quantities of cheese! ; ) )

25

Russell: Very civil response to what was actually quite an inflammatory comment from me. Well done!

Now to the substance of your response. Let's take the quote you reproduced at face value. The narrative leading up to R. Greenstein's quote do not support his assertion that,"states and working-poor families would likely be immediate losers from the Bush plan." Working poor families already are not paying any income taxes. How does eliminating taxation of corporate dividends "hurt" working poor families? Inasmuch as it will spur investment in the private sector it will actually HELP working poor families. Anytime someone can work for a living, even if the pay is not all that great, they are better off than being on the dole, and the more growth there is in the private sector, the more jobs will be available and the better the compensation. As for states, sustained economic growth will be the "offsetting fiscal relief" for elimination of taxation on dividends. And anyway, just because the Feds stop taxing corporate dividends doesn't mean any state has to stop also. Of course if they don't they will be known as a tax hell. Just ask perenially depressed Michigan...

"Why do you think abortion rates are getting higher?"

Haven't given this any thought and even less research, but I would first suspect a several-year uptick in the numbers of women entering the peak abortion-seeking years. Anyone that actually has done some research on this should feel free to join the discussion here.

26

Ummm... Raven? We believe unborn children are human beings, and should be treated as human persons. No, really. It's not just a mask for sexual repressiveness - we actually truly do think this. Hence, the killing of millions of these innocent defenseless human beings every year we see as a horrific atrocity. That is why we hate PP so much.

But you knew this, right?

27

The information I gave regarding Margaret Sanger can be found at wikipedia and the links they have on her. I think those who accuse her of being "despicable" and advocating genocide have the burden of proof. I'm not sure how you expect me to prove that she never advocated abortion, other than to have you read everything she ever wrote or said.

I concede that Sanger did advocate eugenics, a position that I do not at all endorse. At the same time, her comments must be considered in the context of all she said and did and in the context of the times. Many Americans supported eugenics in the early 20th century, including Presidents T. Roosevelt, Taft and Wilson. Obviously, that doesn't make it right or excusable, but it does reveal the extent to which other good people were mistaken on this issue. In the same way, we cannot excuse the statements endorsing slavery by Thomas Jefferson (or the apostle Paul), but we must realize the times in which he lived.

Regarding abortion rates: abortion rates in the U.S. peaked in the early 1980s and have been generally declining ever since. See Guttmacher institute website.

28

Cheesehead, Thanks!

ex-preacher,

"Regarding abortion rates: abortion rates in the U.S. peaked in the early 1980s and have been generally declining ever since. See Guttmacher institute website."

Your facts are right. I was wrong about the increase. I did find though information from the CDC that the decline starting in the 1980's was greatest in the Clinton era and almost halted in the Bush. There was a decline of 30,000 abortions in 1997 from the previous year. A decline of 16,000 in 1998, down 23,000 in 1999, down 9,000 in 2000, down 4,000 in 2001 and just a 1000 in 2002.

29

We believe unborn children are human beings

What do you think I view them as? Used motor oil? Of course they are human beings, at an early stage of development. They have the potential to grow, be born, and live independently of their mothers. Terminating a pregnancy is one of the most difficult decisions any women would ever have to make.

Planned Parenthood does a very great many things in the world - in countries around the globe. They promote health education, they provide prenatal care, they help women to obtain contraception, and, yes, where allowed they help women abort unwanted pregnancies. They are, in my view, a pro-woman, pro-family organization. Our goal as a secular society should be that abortion is safe, legal, and rare. Keeping the tragedy of abortion at the absolute minimum means providing education and assistance to women around the world, to the extent of our ability to do so. This is a Good Thing.

30

Murder is murder, and yet the pro-choicers justify it by claiming that an unborn child, even though it has a heartbeat, and all of the components of a human being, is nothing more than a "thing" in the womb. disgusts me.

31

Raven: Please allow me to be the one who once again proves Godwin's Law correct. I just couldn't help but juxtapose your statement: "Planned Parenthood does a very great many things in the world - in countries around the globe. They promote health education, they provide prenatal care, they help women to obtain contraception, and, yes, where allowed they help women abort unwanted pregnancies." with something a Nazi apologist might have said back in the last century..."The Third Reich does a very great many things in the world - in countries around the globe. They gave us the Volkswagen, they are on the cutting edge of medical reasearch, they help oppressed Aryans obtain food, housing and property, and, yes, where allowed they help Aryans eliminate unwanted Jews, Gypsies, and mental deficients."

You see, Raven, we on the pro-life side don't need to bring used motor oil into the discussion. We understand that unborn children are unambiguously human beings and are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights. Among these are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. Of course these thoughts are not original to us, but hopefully you can understand that your moral prevarications are objectionable to us. And even if you can't understand that they are still objectionable to us.

32

Cheesehead,
THat narrows things down. There aren't many cheese factories left. Arena makes the best stuff. (I can't get fresh curds in Ohio.) I grew up in Bloomington. Get in touch via my blog.

Collin

33

Collin: If you mean the Bloomington in Vernon County, you grew up in one of my favorite places, the West Fork of the Kickapoo Valley by my favorite fondly remembered but sadly no longer running cheese factory--Brush Hollow. The family that owned Brush Hollow told the REA to pass them by when the valley was electrified in the '30s. Right up to the end they worked their little 5,000 lb. vats by hand by the light of kerosene lamps and had their cooler dug into the hillside. I had occassion to pass by there last year. The little cheese factory with the house on top is still there, but falling into ruins. Thanks for bringing up the memory!

(BTW, yes, Arena does make a fine piece of colby.)

34

10: Looks like they need more money to offer better condoms.

"(they burst when filled with air)"

Especially bad news for you "underendowed" fellows. ;-)

9: Too bad the demand for their services is so high.

8: Wish I'd seen this before Christmas.

7: Who cares?

6: PP is not a law enforcement agency. Girls in trouble are less likely to seek help from entities that try to put their boyfriends in jail.

5: Say, that would be a big hit on casual Fridays.

4: Whatever. I'm afraid some of these courageous women might be made martyrs by fanatics, though.

3: Whatever. The article merely offers information.

2: See #7 above.

1: Call the aborted fetuses whatever you wish; they are still fetuses. The salient question is how we define personhood. My wife and I had two miscarriages before our first daughter was born. We grieved at our loss, but what we grieved each time was not the loss of a person but the loss of a potentiality, the death of a dream. Some folks would like to embue an undifferentiated mass of cells with personhood. They are free to do so, but when they seek to impose their opinion on others, they can expect resistance. They are fighting a losing battle. They should worry about their embryos and fetuses and let other people worry about theirs.

35

Ah, the smell of dishonesty in the morning. Folks, PP isn't required to report suspicion of statutory rape, and there's a good reason they wouldn't: no one would go to a medical center or clinic if they knew that that would trigger a police investigation.

36

6: PP is not a law enforcement agency. Girls in trouble are less likely to seek help from entities that try to put their boyfriends in jail.

I don't know if pro-lifers going down this road are stupid, gullible, or just so zealous that honesty is an impediment to the mission, but all states have laws requiring that suspected child abuse be reported. That's "child abuse," not "statutory rape." (the statutes themselves are clear that the latter doesn't constitute the former)

Pro-lifers then stupidly, gullibly, or dishonestly equate the two and call it a day.

37

JPE I don't know if pro-lifers going down this road are stupid, gullible, or just so zealous that honesty is an impediment to the mission, but all states have laws requiring that suspected child abuse be reported. That's "child abuse," not "statutory rape." (the statutes themselves are clear that the latter doesn't constitute the former)

I’m surprised, JPE, that you would make such a patently false assertion. Even the pro-abortion Guttmacher Institute recognizes that statutory rape is often included in the reporting requirements:

Every state criminalizes sex with a minor under a certain age. The laws vary considerably from state to state, based on the age of the “victim,” the age difference between “victim” and “perpetrator” and the nature of the act.

A separate body of laws, which also vary widely by state, identifies those individuals who are required to report child abuse, including child sexual abuse—a term which often, but not always, includes statutory rape. Typically, these "mandatory reporters" are adults who interact regularly with adolescents, such as teachers, social workers and medical professionals ("Statutory Rape Reporting and Family Planning Programs: Moving Beyond Conflict," TGR, June 2004, page 10).

Pro-lifers then stupidly, gullibly, or dishonestly equate the two and call it a day.

Since you have misreported the facts, did you do so stupidly, gullibly, or dishonestly? ; )

38

After a little looking, some statutory rape is reportable in some states. I had initially done a random sampling of state law, none of which include statutory rape within child abuse, and I missed that some states do include st. rape within abuse.

39

I caught my mistake right after you pointed it out. My methodology was flawed, so I erred stupidly.

40

Rob Ryan: We will title your comment "10 Reasons Why PP Supporters are Morally Bankrupt."

Normally my list of reasons to homeschool is purely chronological--the latest reason is assigned the highest number. However, in recognition of your outstanding achievements in moral relativism and exemplifying why I found my own interactions with my public high school English teachers to be among the most outrageous features of life in a public school, I am moving you up 2,500 places on my list from 32,496 to 29,996. Keep it up and eventually you will make it into the top 20,000.

41

Cheesehead,
Bloomington, in Grant County.
Down between Platteville & Prairie du Chien & Lancaster & Fennimore.

42

"I am moving you up 2,500 places on my list from 32,496 to 29,996."

Unfortunately, I care even less about this than I do about other people's embryos. The only thing that bothers me about it is that you aren't stupid enough to justify your believing it to be true. I teach English, not moral relativism. I doubt my students have the slightest idea about my politics or my worldview; I'm just trying to get them to write in complete sentences and think critically. The parents who care in my school's very homogeneous conservative Christian community are very keen to have their kids in my class. It is foolish of you to cast aspersions on my teaching based on the opinions I express on a blog. At least you are consistent in your disdain for public institutions that are not wholly dedicated to propagating your narrow worldview. Furthermore, I'm not in the least concerned about your characterization of me as "morally bankrupt". I don't recognize your authority on the subject. We have different ideas of what it means to be moral. Since we disagree about things of moral import, I could easily stoop to your level and characterize you as morally bankrupt. Unlike you, however, I choose to use hyperbole sparingly so that it retains its power of emphasis, which is all it's really good for. If you wish to paint with your broad brush, go right ahead. Millions of people support Planned Parenthood. If they are all morally bankrupt, the term is bereft of meaning.

43

Take a deep breath, Rob!

44

I've been Nordictracking thrice weekly since New Year's Day, Cheesehead, and I'm not easily winded.

45

Good for you! Keep it up. A good exercise regime really does help you feel better.

As for your teaching abilities...if you truly are spending much time teaching your charges how to write in coherent, complete sentences, that's wonderful, and BTW, something the English teachers I had in high school never got around to doing. They were too busy teaching Values Clarification curriculum. Which brings us to the critical thinking part. My high school English teachers were big into critical thinking, except when any of their students dared turn their critical thinking skills to the dreck that the teachers were putting forth. Then things got interesting. Hopefully your teaching of critical thinking skills are recognized as such even by people who disagree with your (hidden) ideology. The order of the day when I was in school was,"Question authority...except for my authority."

I agree that our worldviews are different enough that it is unsurprising that we find each other's moral compass askew, however when you assert,"Millions of people support Planned Parenthood. If they are all morally bankrupt, the term is bereft of meaning," I will part company with you. Being the Godwin's Law poster child for a second time in this thread I think the vacuity of that statement could be easily shown by substituting the words "Third Reich" for "Planned Parenthood." I'm sure you don't mean to say that if millions of people hold to a particular view therefore it cannot be morally bankrupt, but that is indeed what your last sentence is saying. IOW might (or numbers) makes right. If you do hold that view, you will move another few thousand places up on my list.

46

"Hopefully your teaching of critical thinking skills are recognized as such even by people who disagree with your (hidden) ideology."

I focus on teaching them how to think, not what to think.

"...I think the vacuity of that statement could be easily shown by substituting the words "Third Reich" for "Planned Parenthood.""

Without accepting the comparison at all points, I see where you are coming from. I do not claim that "might makes right"; that would be absurd, given that I see morality as purely subjective. One's morality can be influenced by others, to be sure, but it cannot be imposed against one's will. I am aware that history offers numerous examples of popularly supported atrocities, even in our great nation. However, I do not see the supporters of Planned Parenthood as having much in common with supporters of the Third Reich. Planned Parenthood does not seek to wipe out all pregnancies, just those that are unwanted, unplanned and pertaining to those unwilling to bring the fetus to term. Planned Parenthood is very forthright about their goals, while the Nazis cloaked much of their agenda in secrecy. No one is imprisoned or murdered for denouncing Planned Parenthood. My optimistic view of human nature forbids me to interpret the willing support of Planned Parenthood as indicative of moral bankruptcy; especially since I am one of the supporters, and I know myself to be a capital fellow!

47

Rob,

How do you understand modern critical thinking? Do you see it operating separate from a dialectical world view?

Collin

48

RR: I'll be satisfied to say we understand each other on the whole might makes right issue.

Now, on the "how to think" vs. "what to think" issue, I think there is considerable spade work to be done. Collin's question is a great starting point, so I'll let you interact with that one for a while before I jump back in.

Collin: I tried commenting over on your blog and had the comment ignored about half a dozen times. It didn't make the comment disappear, the post screen just kept coming back up with my message in the typing box but never showing up in the comments.

49

Cheesehead,
Sometimes Blogger acts that way.
Strange and dissatisfying.
I trust you put in the security characters.
You can email me directly. :)

50

Cheesehead,

Haven't seen you around my place much lately. Don't be a stranger! I miss being disagreed with so well...

51

Hey Cheesehead,

I haven't seen you around my place much lately. I miss being disagreed with so well...

52

Just a note on the "Bush takes money from the poor"... We live at/below the official poverty line (and yet, have cable TV and a computer and probably too much food...)
The government pays US at tax time. The more kids we have, the more they pay us (it's a Child Tax Credit).
I really don't understand why people think the government takes from the poor - we also get special services for our children (headstart), we could apply for government food (but don't - we don't need it) and have had government health insurance in the past. And then the government gives us a check at tax time, too.
No wonder the middle class has such a great tax burden! I've been visited by state agencies twice in the last 6 months - they come to my door to ask me if I want to sign up for free immunizations, free milk, food stamp assistance...and are always shocked that I turn them down!

53

Milehimama: May your tribe increase!!!

54

WFO: Your comment system must have the same crank recognition technology as Collin's. I tried to leave a message on your blog and couldn't get through either. And I didn't even have anything disagreeable to say to you!

55

Milehimama,
Anecdotal stories are always good and enlightening, I just wonder though if where you live has any bearing on your happy poverty story. I've been very poor myself, and a computer, t.v. ect, are nice but if one lives in a inner city of high crime these things are irrelevant. I've lived next to drug dealers with 12 foot long pythons and worried what would happen if the thing got loose or some drug deal went bad. Maybe your right and Bush hasn't made more poor people. I can only go by what economist report.

56

Oh shoot - I forgot to turn off the "stinky Wisconsinite" filter...

Just kidding...that's actually really weird that you had trouble. I don't have any spam filtering enabled at all - my poor little blog doesn't get enough traffic to warrant it. Ah well - feel free to keep trying - I delete duplicate comments.

57

Wonders,
Hey! I Resemble that Remark! :)

58

I'm a Christian and I believe in "pro-life." But one thing I love the PP for, and Roe V. Wade, and whoever else is responsible for it, is the doing away with "coathanger" abortions so prevelent years ago.
I dream of the day when abortions are not needed nor wanted, with proper sex education in public schools, supplies of condoms available, adoptions instead of abortions, mental and physical help for the pregnant woman, pre and post natal care for mother and child and a more compassionate view from "just say no"ers, who themselves were teenagers and forgot about raging hormones (maybe they were the ones who never had them.)
I also dream of a day when both sides of this hot-button argument will calmly sit down and see if there are ways to make abortions go away while helping the pregnant couple.
I do believe that, at some future time, abortion will be looked upon in the US as slavery is now.

Love
David Perkins

59

David Perkins: I read your post through a few times, and, I don't know how to put this delicately, but are you ever bothered by cognitive dissonance?

Proper sex education in schools?!? Condoms available?!? THAT'S going to make abortion go the way of slavery?

If you tell young people that yes, abstinence is great and all, but we know you are all just highly evolved slime that cannot control your animalistic instincts, so here are some nice condoms for you kiddies and some good sex education (divorced from God's perspective in the public schools), well...no wonder we end up with children ruining their lives and the lives of their future or not-so-future children by not learning the joy entering into a life-long, mutually monogamous marriage as virgins.

Call me out-of-date, but I believe that commandment about adultery did not come with an expiration date and was not given to deprive us of pleasure, but was instead given so we could enjoy life (including sex) in a way so much fuller than the shallow, tacky, tawdry commodity it is treated like in the schools and media and the attendant broken families it brings.

60

Cheesehead, you said "Call me out-of-date"

Okay, you're out of date.

Adultery, BTW, is between two married adults cheating on their spouses. Sex out of marraige , mostly pre-marital, is called fornication. While both are not condoned by the Bible, what do you do with all the young people who don't believe in the Bible?

There's the problem between you and me. I recognize that many don't believe as I do and thus the government, our government for all of us, Christian and non-Christian alike, has a duty to protect them. Sex education and all the others I mentioned fall into the category of good government. Should a church do it? That's up to that church, don't you think?

Just as a personal aside, I believe that's the difference between your evangelism and mine.

Cheesehead, just what do you have against young people getting a good education and learning what you didn't? Isn't that called progress, where our children know more than we do? As the wise person once said "don't get your ignorance on me."

And while you are out of date, the Bible never is, so don't come back with that old honker. And please don't accuse me of condoning fornication or adultery. I don't but I have enough sense to recognize a societal problem and seek a cure.

Love
David

61

David: You and Joe Mc F keep comparing you as an evangelist and me. I keep telling you, I'm a cheese maker, not an evangelist!!!

Meanwhile I fully understand that most people are not reconciled to God, and therefore do not accept the Biblical standards of conduct that ought to be followed by Christians.

Speaking strictly from a civics POV, sex education is the surest way to increase promiscuity, out-of-wedlock pregnancy and the attendant choices of either abortion, teenage motherhood, or (rarely) giving the child up for adoption. Would that the last choice where the one most often chosen!

As to young people "getting a good education and learning what (I) didn't," as the father of three children I believe that there is very little about love, intimacy, and childbirth that I do not know. And as an adolescent I was very much aware of everything I needed to know about sex, chiefly, but not limited to, that the best way to enjoy sex is in the context of life-long, mutually monogamous relationship.

So, much as you would like to put daylight between my position and that of Scripture, I will stick with the out-of-date Biblical view of sex, thank you. As for your "cure," it is worse than the "disease."

62

Cheesehead, my friend,

You ARE an evangelist. We, that follow Christ, are all evangelists. I don't mean all get into the pulpit to preach, but we all evangelize one way or the other.

But you said "Speaking strictly from a civics POV, sex education is the surest way to increase promiscuity, out-of-wedlock pregnancy and the attendant choices of either abortion, teenage motherhood, or (rarely) giving the child up for adoption" Just where are you getting your data? If it's your opinion, I disagree. My personal experience has been "The more you know, the less you make mistakes." The best education for our children generally results in more ethical children.
If you have UNBIASED research or scientific data to back up that claim, I'd like to see it.

And in another thread you and I have had a go at the "40 days and 40 nights" raining during the flood in the Bible. I say that "40 days" has the meaning of "meany days" in some places in the Bible and you maintain that when the Bible says "40 days" it means "40 days." Well, I have an iffefutable fact that IT RAINED FOR 41!!!!!

Figure that one out. I'll give you a hint. I just finished watching SuperBowl XLI and it rained the whole game.

Love
David

63

I've been away tending to my non-cyber life, so this is probably a dead thread. On the off chance that it isn't I have a few points that need clarifying.

"Just where are you getting your data?...If you have UNBIASED research or scientific data to back up that claim, I'd like to see it."

The data is all over the place. If you could define what you mean by "UNBIASED research or scientific data" I could tailor the research sources to ones you would accept. I suspect that by "UNBIASED" you probably mean "results that agree with your presuppositions." I will further caution that I long ago gave up spending much time tracking down internet citations for data that anyone can access with a simple google search just because someone says,"prove it!" I would be much more willing to do that legwork if you first provide citations to support your opinion.

"My personal experience has been 'The more you know, the less you make mistakes.' The best education for our children generally results in more ethical children."

First off, your personal experience does not rise to the level of unbiased research or scientific data. Second, my personal experience directly refutes the causal link you posit between "education" (however defined) and "ethical children." Some of the most evil people in the world are very smart and very well educated.

RE: Superbowl XLI. Ha ha ha!