"There are three conversions necessary,” said Martin Luther, “the conversion of the heart, mind and purse." Of these three the "purse" is often the most obdurate. The biblical word for conversion is “metanoia”, a Greek term meaning a change of mind. A change of mind and our way of thinking, however, becomes notably more difficult when it comes to issues of money and wealth.
Surprisingly, while Jesus often talked about the subject, we generally lack a theological foundation for our views on money. Too often we Christians simply baptize the economic assumptions that align with our side of the political spectrum. I’m no exception, of course, but because it is often easier to remove the speck from someone else's eye than to remove the log from one's own, I wanted to use an example from my friend Dan Edelen.
His post caught my attention because it was ostensibly about “economic justice issues.” Instead of being about the poor, though, the post was about injustice to the middle class. In his conclusion he writes:
And in the end, that's what this post is all about. I just completed a series on community , and I believe that our churches must start working toward some kind of money pool to help fellow congregants who fall on hard times. With so many families' money highly leveraged, and the reality that the middle class is fighting a losing battle against rising costs, something needs to be done on a macro level to fix some of the financial injustices people face today.
But the pulpit is silent. Sure, you'll hear about Ron Blue or Crown Financial stuff from time to time, but they only address individual issues. Who in the Church in America speaks out against the real problem, our broken system?
Sure, we Americans spend too much of our incomes. But if the middle class continues to erode, it won't be a matter of spending too much on a consumeristic lifestyle. The real problem will be how to cope when curtailing excess spending simply won't halt the slide. You can shave expenses down to the bone, but when the bone's gone missing…
All it takes is a minor recession, I think. Or Ford or GM collapsing. With so many precariously perched families with no savings, high credit card debt, loans taken against homes of decreasing value—it won't take much.
Church, are we ready? Truly?
With all due respect to my friend Dan, his application of the biblical ideal of economic justice to the middle class is absolutely bizarre. The biblical standard of economic justice is that everyone has the resources needed for living. As I’ve argued before, by the bible’s criteria even the “poor” in America have a financial obligation to help their neighbors in need. Attempting to expand the standard to include the “middle class”--a group of the wealthiest people in the history of the planet--is sinfully hubristic.
Consider what it means to be in the “middle class.” Based on 2004 data, the median household income of people in their prime working years (ages 25-59) is $63,300. For married households it’s $70,000 and close to $80,000 for two-earner households. This is the result of “our broken system”? Most people throughout history could only fantasize about being subjected to such “financial injustice.” The standard of what is “poor” hasn’t changed. What has changed is that fewer of us in the West are living at sustenance level.
I agree with Dan that the Church isn’t ready to deal with the situation. In fact, I believe that the church is largely responsible for the situation. Our churches do not speak out about Christians being such reckless stewards of God’s resources that they become “precariously perched families with no savings, high credit card debt, loans taken against homes of decreasing value.” Most of our economic problems are caused because we serve mammon rather than God. I certainly don’t know anyone who has put themselves in such financial straits because they were overly concerned with helping the needy.
Indeed, even the poor in our country have more possessions than the rich young ruler who Jesus had told to sell all he had in order to find salvation. And the middle class, for all our perceived economic hardships, have an excess of wealth that could feed every poor person on earth. “Woe to you who are rich!” exclaimed Jesus. “For you have received your consolation.” In hearing those words it would be foolish to think He isn’t talking about us. After all, Christ warning isn’t based on a progressive tax scale.
http://www.evangelicaloutpost.com/mt/mt-trackback.cgi/3207
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Let's weep for the poor in the middle class.
Let's sorrow for their strugge.
Let's reach out to their needs.
Because we know who is the true enemy. It is the rich. It is those who have more than they need.
And if they've have what the needy need, well, that's what being a Dem is all about.
Collin
posted on 11.13.2006 7:56 AM2
Ditto, Collin.
Joe:
Your friend, Dan Edelen, has bought into one of the memes of the left: i.e., the middle class is under attack. (Alleged attack started under Ronald Reagan, of course.) These same lefties believe that it's the unions who were largely responsible for creating the middle class. In other words we had a middle class because one group of Americans were willing to beat up other Americans to keep them from taking their jobs. Ever since Reagan fired those poor air controllers (and they WERE poor compared to the "rich"), the middle class has been steadily in decline.
I would agree to the extent that there seems to be unease in the middle class about how they can afford their next SUV. I also believe that this is going to become a bigger issue. One of my favorite curmudgeons, John Derbyshire, from NRO, seems to think that the middle class is in decline as well. If he thinks so, then I would give the idea more credibility.
As to churches not talking about financial matters: our church is hearing it from the pulpit right now. In case you're wondering, our pastor says it all belongs to God; we're just caretakers for the moment. I think Mr. Edelen has been attending the wrong church. As a deacon in our church, I've been dealing with issues of financial irresponsibility for years (including my own). Why do people like Edelen always assume that they are talking about something new, different and revolutionary?
posted on 11.13.2006 8:52 AM3
I do relate somewhat to the "plight" of the middle class.
posted on 11.13.2006 9:04 AMI've been married 20 years, have 2 kids 17 and 14 have been a stay at home Mom for the last 17 years(starting a new job today!)We have been the model family as far as financial stewardship goes. I have been a scratch cook, making menus and shopping carefully,we rarely eat out, ordering in a pizza maybe once every three or four months.We have no credit card debt, a mortgage, and a car payment because we had to replace our 18 year old car this past August.We put down 10,000 in cash so the car payment wouldn't be too high and we got 0% interest on the loan. We don't have new furniture or a lot of extras. We tithe faithfully and are always looking to see who we can help with money whether charity or people in our church who need a financial boost. We also save for our retirement.
Now we are looking into college for my son next fall. I guess I always thought there would be financial aid to help with that expense. We had the idea that we would put up 1/3, our son would work and put up 1/3, and we could get some financial aid to help with the rest. No sorry that money goes to pay all the expenses of those unfortunates who have never saved and made all the wrong choices.We just get to pay for their school lunches while my kids brought peanut butter and jelly everyday.We get to pay outrageous hospital and doctor bills while they get free medical care. I guess it just bugs me.
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Deva:
I'm sure Mr. Edelen believes that it's not fair that you should have to pay for those free lunches. In all his fairness, he would say that the rich should be taxed more.
It bugs me, too.
posted on 11.13.2006 9:20 AM5
Some years ago (1600+) Evagrius Ponticus taught while the rich should aid the poor, the poor should pray for the rich. I'd imagine with the rise of the middle class, they should do both, that is pray for the wealthy andand aid those neighbors less fortunate.
The Left (and most pulpits) remind us over and over of the former but neglect the latter, it seems. Rarely I think are we enjoined (or do we) pray the rich that they might deal with the burdens and pitfalls engendered by their wealth.
posted on 11.13.2006 9:40 AM6
you pray for the rich that they not fall to the lures of greed and vanity, which seem to be espoused on this site more than anything fundimental to the christian faith.
posted on 11.13.2006 11:05 AM7
What is the purpose of the Bible's call for people to practice charity? Was it just a primitive type of food stamps/social security/unemployment benefits system? If so then it can indeed be ditched in the developed world today as Joe is correct just about everyone there has enough to meet their 'basic needs' and those that don't can be helped with a trivial amount of effort on the national scale (the rest of the world, though, sadly remains far behind).
However I would suspect the command has less to do with creating an ad hoc social safety net 2000+ years before FDR than it does shaping the mind and soul of the person who is performing charity. If that's the case the primary purpose of charity is to benefit the person performing the charity rather than the person receiving it.
In that case it is important to try to make your charity productive by giving to those places that need the most (which are mostly outside the US and far away from most of us both geographically and culturally). But it is more important to do charity and that means helping those who are around you. If you live in a middle class community those that may need help are indeed likely to be people suffering from credit card debt, mortgages and other problems. These people are unlikely to be poor in the technical sense but it seems that helping your fellow man should not require you to whip out a table to see if his income puts him above or below the poverty level.
posted on 11.13.2006 11:29 AM8
Yes, we all (myself included) could do a much better job of stewardship with the profligate riches with which we have been blessed.
Othewise much of the responses here display ignorance concerning Biblical standards of government, family, neighbors, and church. Nowhere in the Bible is it suggested that the purpose of government is to take money by force from one group of people and use it to pay for food, clothing, housing, or medical care for another group of people. Those are the duties of famiies, neighbors, and churches. Government was designed by God for certain purposes, and that ain't one of them. Anyone who calls for government to do such things b/o 'Christian' principles either does not take the Bible seriously, is not really a Christian, or is grossly mistaken about what the Bible has to say on the matter.
If the church had not abdicated her responsibility to teach principles of Godly government, we would not be in the mess we're in. The lack of acknowledgement of said principles has led to the vast over-regulation and taxation by our government (still less than in many nations, praise God), which causes the high prices of medical care and many other items, and fewer opportunities for employment across the board (altho', thanks to Bush's relatively minimal tax cuts [which we're about to lose, thanks to the shortsighted electorate] our economy is booming compared to others).
To take just one example, if there were no government regulation in the form of Medical Practice Acts and the FDA, medical care would be so cheap and plentiful, there would be no health care insurance crisis because no one would bother with health insurance, anymore than they buy plumbing insurance. I would be living in a double-wide, and be a much happier man, since my patients would all be able to afford the medicines and specialized care that they need, and it would be so cheap that churches could provide the appendectomies and antibiotics for the few unable to afford even the vastly lower prices. And no 6 month Canadian waiting lists, either.
Multiply that by almost every other industry in the nation, and it becomes a testimony to just how powerful an economic engine we have. Despite all the sand we're throwing in the gears, it's still chugging along. And able to provide us with the a military that has the greatest disparity in power between it and the next rank of nations the world has ever seen, for all we're too wussified to actually use it even against an openly declared enemy who has hit us repeatedly and threatens to do so again.
posted on 11.13.2006 12:57 PM9
Joe,
I had no intention in my post of somehow equating the middle class with the genuine poor. Personally, I think there are very few truly poor people in our country when compared with the poor of the rest of the world. One trip to the garbage dumps in Mexico City will cure anyone of believing there is any equality.
But I'm not talking about the poor. I am talking about the downward slide of many middle class people, folks who aren't spendthrifts. In many cases, the corporate powers that be are increasingly disparaging those folks, the ones who make their companies tick, making it harder and harder for them to make ends meet. The American ideal that hard work gets one ahead fails when it meets that kind of morally bankrupt, unified system. And yes, that makes it an economic justice issue.
Reducing workers to "human capital" that can be spent or tossed away at will poisons the current business climate most middle class people work in. Social Darwinism is at work in boardrooms today just as it was in the mills of Great Britain circa 1865.
If a family started out with a sole breadwinner, but saw that sole breadwinner go through a series of downsizings or watached his overtime go away so that now mom has to work slinging hash at a Denny's third shift, that ultimately affects the Church. No one was profligate here, but something changed nonetheless. That has ramifications that go far and ultimately alter our society.
For this reason, the church must speak out. I noted in a previous post about a normal Midwest family that watched both parents lose jobs and the father ultimately get hurt badly so he could not work full-time. That family approached their church for help, but the church instead spent $80,000 on a new sound system. That family lost their modest home and now lives in an abandoned house that was condemned.
Who speaks for them? If we don't as the Body of Christ, we should not sully the name of the Lord by calling ourselves Christians. I believe more people in this country are heading for the same kind of fall that this family had. If other people don't, then I guess conditions must be great where they live. But they're not universally great. The largest states in this country are seeing a progressive downward spiral of wages, especially among the middle class.
Yes, we cannot ignore the poor. But if people in our own suburban neighbors find themselves unable to stay afloat because they're moving backwards rather than forwards, what next? We can't just sit idly by and pretend it's not happening. I see it all around me. My neighbors are struggling. My friends are struggling. None of them are radical consumers blowing money hand over fist. They worked to a certain point and now they're losing ground--quickly.
If my concern makes me a nut, then I'm a nut. I don't know what else to say.
posted on 11.13.2006 2:36 PM10
Your concern is not nutty at all. And that church, and every other, certainly should have been more ready to help than you relate.
I simply caution that we must recognize the root cause of the problem. Corporations can do what they do because they are protected from competition to a certain extent by the maze of regulations that we have allowed our government to promulgate. Large companies can spin these things to their advantage, and assign i-dotters and t-crossers to make sure that on paper they're following the rules. A small entrepeneur, who might otherwise be able to compete, thus providing not only lower prices but more opportunities for employment, can't meet the gov't regs as easily. Result? Higher prices, less employment, more suffering by the poor and the 'middle class'. Solution? Structure gov't according to Biblical principles. Watch competition flourish, prices drop, and employment skyrocket.
This is not an either/or; the church should be both helping those who are in current need, and promoting Godly gov't. Unfortunately, being full of such frail and fallen beings as I am, she does a poor job of either one. Let's pray for her, and 'put feet on our prayers'.
posted on 11.13.2006 2:45 PM11
As to those who accuse me of being some leftist who would tax the rich, I'm not. What I am against is company leaders growing richer at the expense of their employees. I'm against record profits for companies while they eliminate health insurance and retirement for their workers. I'm against insurance companies that give their CEO $1 Billion in stock while rejecting claims from average people who have legitimate healthcare needs.
Right now, my family is helping to pay the bills of a woman whose rare cancer wasn't deemed "the right kind," so her insurance won't pay for her treatment. She's been destroyed financially. Was she poor? No. But her pain is just as real. She's not eligible for the kinds of compensatory services given to the "traditionally" poor, either, so she's been left on her own. No one in her church lifted a finger to help her. Does she not deserve economic justice just because she started out middle class?
What happened to her could happen to any of us. Overnight, you might lose it all. And while we all acknowledge that God does not owe us a middle class existence, knowing that the people around you aren't all that likely to be sympathetic only makes your plight worse.
God, knows I don't want to be one of those people who watches my neighbors go down in flames without lifting a finger to prevent that from happening. When we just look the other way and let that happen, we shouldn't call ourselves servants of Christ.
posted on 11.13.2006 3:02 PM12
Doc,
Let us Christians instead start practicing our own Economy of the Kingdom that does not in any way resemble the fallen systems of the world. It will be hard to do, but He that is in us is greater than the world's systems.
That's the whole point of my post.
posted on 11.13.2006 3:06 PM13
I totally agree that we should be practicing what we preach in terms of 'Kingdom' ethics etc. That includes what we do as employers (and emplyees) if we're in that position.
But that also includes something else. Let's consider: who is the 'sovereign' of a nation? That's the ruler, be it King, Queen, Prince, etc. Who is sovereign of the US? That's 'we the people'. I.e., each one of us is part of the sovereign of the US.
Let's pretend: you wake up one morning to find a messenger from the tiny kingdom of Lower Slobbovia, who has been sent by the National Council to beg you, the (unbeknownst to you) only legitimate heir to the throne, to assume the kingship and lead their desperate nation. You, for whatever reason, have no other duties that would conflict with and override taking on this duty. Presuming that you do so, would it not be your duty to rule in as Godly a manner as possible? Similarly, is it not our duty to rule this nation in as Godly a manner as possible, even as we try to deal as a church with the fallout of human damage caused by unGodly gov't policies?
BTW, wouldn't it be interesting if those churches which were serious about the Bible were to put highly visible and hence economic pressure on corporations to deal more 'humanely' with their employees (as well as trying to counter some of the more idiotic pro-homosexual/pro-'environmental'/politically correct nonsense spewing from corporate America these days)?
posted on 11.13.2006 3:36 PM14
A stronger and more affluent middle-class is also usually good for the poor overall, as they are the primary source of fund that go to the poor, either by taxes or by donations.
Unless you are trying to build a homeless shelter in a suburb. Then the middle class are jerks.
I don't think "Economic Injustice" is really about the rich getting richer and the poor (or the middle class) getting poorer.We admire people who have gotten rich as success stories or being lucky.
The concern that is bubbling up from the non-rich is exactly what methods they used to get there. Junk Bonds? Manipulation of the dates of your stock options? Enron? A corporation may have a board of Directors, but in the strictest sense it has no soul. Its not capable of making a right or wrong decision, only a more or less profitable one.
posted on 11.13.2006 4:41 PM15
Doc said: "BTW, wouldn't it be interesting if those churches which were serious about the Bible were to put highly visible and hence economic pressure on corporations to deal more 'humanely' with their employees (as well as trying to counter some of the more idiotic pro-homosexual/pro-'environmental'/politically correct nonsense spewing from corporate America these days)?"
Exactly.
The other stuff is minor compared with company leaders following The Golden Rule. We talk about being Christians at work, but our vision is so small. Churches have largely abandoned dialog with American businesses on real matters of economics and treating their employees in a just and godly way. The moral issue stuff is easy. Gutting the ungodly core of how business functions is far more difficult. But that doesn't mean it's too difficult for God.
Now who's going to stand up and be counted?
posted on 11.13.2006 4:42 PM16
If we, as citizens, expect the government to not favor large corporations at the expense of the average working man, and don't favor tax breaks for the wealthy, is that "class warfare"?
posted on 11.13.2006 7:09 PM17
But I wonder ...
Do the liberal respondents here want a certain type of liberal theonomy? That is, if it's evangelical social values, it's bad, but if it's Christian values restated and used for public purposes to socialistic ends, then it's good? Seems a bit self-contractictory.
Collin
posted on 11.13.2006 7:26 PM18
Taking Mr. Edelen seriously, just what exactly does he think should be done? Churches need to speak out from the pulpit against multi-national corporations? Pastors should rail against the huge salaries of CEOs? I'm not at all clear what point Mr. Edelen is trying to make. Should we add this to the list of things which make life unbearable? I'm just a tad suspicious of people who are concerned about their neighbor's plight. I wonder if a conversation with Mr. Edelen might go something like this:
Me: How are things going with you today, Mr. Edelen?
Mr. Edelen: Things are fine with me, but man, things are really tough around here for lots of other folks.
I guess my point is that the demise of the middle class is an exaggeration.
posted on 11.13.2006 9:20 PM19
Having "christian values" restated and used for public purposes to support right-wing authoritarians is the tragedy of our times.
posted on 11.14.2006 10:07 AM20
Let's see, Jesus said "love thy neighbor", but that doesn't mean be concerned for their plight?
posted on 11.14.2006 10:29 AMJesus also says "blessed are the peace makers" too, but that's not really relevant today...he didn't have a "war on terror" to fight.
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Ahem, as a working poor recent college graduate, I think some of these comments were not considerate of my situation (and many like me). I will not elaborate on my particular plight but let's just say I'm worried about making my student loan payment at the end of the month (and credit card payment, so shoot me.) I want to pay it all off, but 15K a year is not going to cut it. That's a salaried position at a State University!! If I left it, I'd lose full health coverage. My husband makes less than I do. He's in ministry full-time. They feed him lunch everyday and pay his health premium. Plus a little cash to fill his gas tank.
Yes, I'm looking for other work. I might have to move across the country. I would like to economize but I got locked into a cellular phone plan and internet plan that require $150 smackers each to break them off. See the downward spiral and trap?
I was interviewing a 50 year class reunion of college graduates the other day. One thing came up repeatedly in our conversations, which I did not initiate. They said, "We worry our grandchildren will not have the same opportunities and life like we had. We were very blessed."
They shared stories of getting chances to prove themselves as human beings in the work world. I must fill out endless paper work, write "strong" resumes and wait for the interviews that never come...
posted on 11.14.2006 10:41 AM22
Conservative Brunette (Anna),
I hear what you're saying. I wish more people did. You understand the tightrope you're walking over. But so few others do, especially if they have tons of disposable income.
Something happens to you on the inside when you work so hard in college only to get out and find you may have picked the wrong major. Or the world, which changes faster than ever, is not the same world as the one you stepped out of to enter college. The new world makes your learning seem irrelevant. Or someone with similar learning on the other side of the world will do your job cheaper than you can afford to. Then what?
I understand.
Does your church speak to any of these issues? How do you feel about the way your church addresses your situation? Do you believe that they would support you should some big debt arise that would put you in financial straits?
posted on 11.14.2006 12:07 PM23
The socialist left will always lose in any discussion of biblical principles because NEVER does the bible call the righteous to take money from someone else by force under the threat of imprisonment and give it to someone else. We can call taxes a necessary evil, but there is no justification for arbitrary increasing brackets. Calling this "Justice" is a travesty. Giving and love and generosity are definitionally not ENFORCED by imprisonment.
This battle is nothing new. It started in the garden. For the Left, Government is God and we are the government. There is no higher authority and politics are how we decide what justice is. For a follower of Christ, justice is decided by God, and we either Ultimately, if we get to decide what justice is, we eat the apple as we have replaced God with ourselves in the garden.
The extent to which we have fallen from God's idea of New Testament justice is exemplified in the following command, which today would be considered a right-wing extremist view, but truly is a compassionate command of the God of justice and mercy.
"For even when we were with you, we commanded you this: If anyone will not work, neither shall he eat. For we hear that there are some who walk among you in a disorderly manner, not working at all, but are busybodies. Now those who are such we command and exhort through our Lord Jesus Christ that they work in quietness and eat their own bread." 2 Thessalonians 3:10-12 (NKJV)
[1] The New King James Version. Nashville : Thomas Nelson, 1982
posted on 11.14.2006 2:19 PM24
DLE,
Thank you for the sympathetic response.
Our church is like us, mainly poor. It is multi-racial and multi-generational (PoMo/Emergent Paradise.) They do have one thing going: Love. We can remember everyone's name (and their children's names) as it is that small. If we go Awol on a Sunday, they miss us and we miss them.
We haven't asked for support because they already try to keep one missionary afloat and pay rent on their shabby building. They love us to bits! After just two months attending there, they threw a wedding shower/BBQ party for us after Sunday service. A couple families regularly ask us to lunch or dinner.
We were apart of a large pentecostal church (where my husband's ministry is affiliated). This spring we left that fellowship. On Easter Sunday, they took up an offering for a $95,000.00 (or more) digital building sign. Yeah, that hurts.
I'd rather live with some real folk who love each other than being in plastic neon advertised American Dream church where they don't seem to notice if you're in trouble.
posted on 11.14.2006 3:00 PM25
MB,
In this discussion, who exactly presenting a "socialist left" viewpoint? Are you referring to Conservative Brunette (Anna) or myself?
While I can't speak for Anna, I know all I did was refer to two well-known teachings of Jesus: "Love Thy Neighbor" and "Blessed are the peace makers".
Did you ever ask yourself why good bible believing Christians should always support a political
party that supports corporate interests over that of the working man and a never-ending "war on terror"? Is thinking the working man ought to be treated fairly by government a socialist viewpoint?
Yes, in an ideal world, everyone would be christian and the church would be able to help the needy, but we don't live in that world.
posted on 11.14.2006 4:21 PM26
10% is 10%, no matter how you cut it. It is not a question of economics - it is a question of obedience to our Lord.
posted on 11.14.2006 10:39 PM27
Does anyone but me think this is ridiculously simple?
A political or life philosophy based on what is clearly called sin in the Bible is incompatible with Jewish or Christian faith. The wise man built his house upon the rock, the foolish man upon the sand. This is not complicated folks.
“You must not be envious of your neighbor’s house, or want to sleep with his wife, or want to own his slaves, oxen, donkeys, or anything else he has.” Exodus 20:17 The Living Bible
posted on 11.15.2006 12:10 PMSome of us think this is true and applies to us, and some of us think it is a lie or does not apply to us. Stone or sand, we all make our stand.
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here's a story of a modern day hero, Aaron Feuerstein, whose Massachusetts factory, Malden Mills, burned. Rather than move his company overseas, he rebuilt the factory, and paid his 3000 employees all the months that the factory was out of commission. A truly biblical response from a wealthy businessman (though, I doubt if he's a believer - he credits his Jewish roots for his response.)
"I have a responsibility to the worker," he told Parade Magazine in 1996, "both blue-collar and white-collar. I have an equal responsibility to the community. It would have been unconscionable to put 3000 people on the streets and deliver a deathblow to the cities of Lawrence and Methuen. Maybe on paper our company is worthless to Wall Street, but I can tell you it's worth more."
http://www.aish.com/societyWork/work/Aaron_Feuerstein_Bankrupt_and__Wealthy.asp
posted on 11.15.2006 3:00 PM29
Joe: Sorry, but I'm with Dan on this one. I've written a post expressing my disagreement with your attitude about the middle class on Terra Extraneus. I love you, brother -- but I disagree with on this one.
posted on 11.15.2006 6:29 PM30
terry hull:
I'm not seeing what Dan and yourself are really saying. Are you saying that there is some huge injustice being perpetrated on the middle class? It appears to me that the middle class is lying in a bed of its own making. The problem is not lack of income, right? The problem is living beyond means, not planning for bad times. You appear to be saying that because there are some unscrupulous rich people, we need to designate the middle class as the "new victimized class."
You also seem to be saying that pastors should be preaching about economic injustice. I say that any pastor worth his calling HAS been preaching about economic injustice. I also say that any church that isn't helping those in need is not acting like a part of the Body.
You and Dan talk about "setting aside a fund" for people in need--as if that was some kind of new idea. I say, if that's a new idea then you don't understand what church is all about and you need to find a new one.
In short, I really don't understand what you and Dan are griping about. It sounds to me like typical liberal "awareness" talk. Please don't take offense; I really do want to understand what you see as the problem. But as a deacon in a church, I don't need to be made aware of financial problems among God's people. That's not to say there aren't problems in my church that I'm unaware of. But that's often a matter of pride; people who are having financial problems don't want to admit it to the very people who are in a position to help. And believe me, we have helped--many times.
There have been posters here who have commplained about being stretched financially while their church spends thousands for a new sign or some other capital improvement. I'm curious about some things. Is this kind of spending what attracted them to the church in the first place? Is it the kind of church that cares more about its image in the neighborhood than about its own flock? Was anyone aware that the above posters were having financial problems? Did the deacons make some accountability demands on the congregants that were not acceptable? Like maybe attending a finance seminar or something?
posted on 11.16.2006 3:20 PM31
I am professionally a CFP and financial analyst, and I work with individuals to plan their financial lives and have for over 20 years. That the "middle class" is disadvantaged in any way is a bald-faced lie foisted upon people for political gain. The single biggest financial problem with the middle class and poor in America is that their appetite for consumption is higher than their production. They need to be more productive and spend less. We spend money we do not have on things we do not need to impress people we do not like.
Tax brackets quite simply increase with income. Rich people pay more $ and a higher percentage of their income than poor people. 40 million working Americans pay no income tax at all (the latest figures I have seen from a professional journal). These are the working poor and the lower middle class. As an above poster said, people who work more hours make more money, and people who have more education have higher incomes. The correlations are very high. Anyone who tells you different is lying. There is no more accurate word for it.
There is no huge conspiracy against the middle class by a governmental or corporate body. On the contrary, everyone should see that the voting and spending power are firmly with this huge group so they will not be ignored by either power. Common sense tells us this.
Most of the burden for unprepared and financially overextended people will fall directly on those families who "benefitted" from their unbilical foolish overspending. That is true economic justice. Sowing and reaping.
But, where we all lose here is when some of us choose to believe politicians that tell us we are being oppressed so that we can justify oppressing others to make things "fair". "Justice" should mean, and used to mean, getting what you deserve. Just desserts, whether good or bad. It has come to mean, "fairness". Note the old objective definition appealing to an external measure: like if you earn an A you get an A is justice. To: If you are one race you deserve an A, and another a B and another a C, because that is "fair". Or more specifically, when you have 4 kids one tax scheme is "fair", and when you are married it is another, and when you are higher income a whole other scheme is "fair". When we move from economic justice being what you deserve, to getting what is "fair", it becomes a political battle with no moral scruples, only what one can get from the system to right the imaginary wrongs committed against them by "corporate America" or the government.
posted on 11.16.2006 5:06 PM32
The real conditon of the middle class in America is better than ever. Unemployment is 4.4% after going over 12% in the early 80's. This is not the church's "problem".
"...a considerable portion of the political left's intellectual energy has been spent in poor-mouthing the ensuing prosperity...
...Let's start with the biggest risk of all: that of premature death. Back in 1970, during Mr. Hacker's golden age of economic stability and risk-sharing, the age-adjusted death rate stood at 12.2 deaths per 1,000 people. By 2002, it had fallen more than 30%, to 8.5 per 1,000. In particular, infant mortality plummeted to 7.0 from 20.0, while the number of Americans killed on the job dropped to three per 100,000 workers from 18.
Next, look at the two main indicators of middle-class status: a home of one's own and a college degree. Between 1970 and 2004, the homeownership rate climbed to 69% from 63%, even as the physical size of the median new home grew by nearly 60%. Back in 1970, 11% of Americans 25 years of age or older had a college or higher degree. By 2004, the figure had risen to 28%.
As to consumer possessions, the following comparison should suffice to make the point. In 1971, 45% of American households had clothes dryers, 19% had dishwashers, 83% had refrigerators, 32% had air conditioning, and 43% had color televisions. By the mid-1990s all of these ownership rates were exceeded even by Americans below the poverty line."
From Poor-Mouthing Prosperity
Does today's free market create too much insecurity?
BY BRINK LINDSEY
Thursday, September 21, 2006
From http://www.opinionjournal.com/la/?id=110008971
posted on 11.16.2006 11:10 PM33
I have to join Dan and the brunette on this one. If you don't see that we have in place a government that almost completely favors corporations and corporate interests over the rights and protections of individuals and families, then youre just blind.
I can think of many examples that are immediately and painfully obvious:
Government support of banks charging usurious interest rates and making it even harder for families and individuals to use bankruptcy to escape these usurious interest rates. (big bucks given to (mostly republican) politicians by the banking industry.
Government support of corporations who want to embed the media and software we buy with crippling restrictive technologies, in direct violation of the well-established principles of Fair Use. (big bucks given to politicians by the media and software industries.)
Government leaning toward opposition to Net Neutrality. (big bucks given to (mostly republican) politicians by the cable and telco industries.
Government leaning against protecting families, individuuals and the poorest people on earth from environemntal disaster. (big bucks given to (mostly republican) politicians by the oil companies.
Health Care
Pharmaceuticals
etc etc.
I think there is an assumption among so many evangelicals that the status quo we have had in terms of prioritizing family, church, government and business is fine and that anyone who disagrees can just be slapped with the liberal label and then ignored.
I believe that the model we see for the church in the new testament is that the church is actually pretty neutral when it comes to government, so for example you could truly be a Christian socialist or a Christian libertarian, democrat or republican.
Insofar as we have a model for "godly government" in the bible I read THIS:
Leviticus 19:10 (Show me Leviticus 19)
And you shall not strip your vineyard bare, neither shall you gather the fallen grapes of your vineyard. You shall leave them for the poor and for the sojourner: I am the Lord your God.
Leviticus 23:22 (Show me Leviticus 23)
“And when you reap the harvest of your land, you shall not reap your field right up to its edge, nor shall you gather the gleanings after your harvest. You shall leave them for the poor and for the sojourner: I am the Lord your God.”
Umm I believe there were SANCTIONS associated with these commands. So do you own the vineyard or not?
All I am saying is... Its not nearly as black and white as many believe and you can be a faithful follower of Jesus and not have to be in one group or the other.
Scott
posted on 11.17.2006 1:21 PM34
Joe: Thanks for your comment at my blog on my post: "Should We Feel Sorry for the Middle Class?" I have just posted the second installment of the series, titled: "Who's In the Middle Class, How Much do They Make -- and How Much is Left Over?" In the next installment of the series, I am going to survey the dozens of comments that have been posted here at Evangelical Outpost and over at Dan Edelen's blog.
posted on 11.17.2006 4:34 PM35
Dan is right, and Joe seems to miss the point. Middle class is not only people earning $80K/yr. It's also families of five earning $32K/yr without health insurance. In recent months my family has made a barely too much money for food stamps or free lunches, but too not quite enough to pay our bills. We have no car payments or credit card debt, we spend frugally and are reasonably healthy. Yet health care costs are pulling us down to the point where some months we haven't been able to afford food.
Some, generally wealthier folks have decent health care as a fringe benefit of their jobs and are doing just fine. Other folks, somewhat poorer than we, receive free health care by virtue of being legally indigent. My family makes just enough money that we have to pay our own way for health insurance and deductible expenses. In the past three years that has amounted to about a third of our gross income.
I don't equate our plight with, say, what people are facing in Honduras, but something is neverthless broken with our economic system, particularly as it relates to health care and the middle class.
posted on 11.17.2006 7:38 PM36
Wow. We live in the richest nation in the history of the world, where even people on welfare can afford to be single and have children, cell phones, cable TV and cars, and half this list say it's the government or the church's fault things aren't better for the middle class. Our discussion is seriously broken.
I went to Zambia and found people who were overjoyed at having aspirin and you spend your days whining about not be able to afford an MRI and a mortgage on a several hundred thousand dollar house! The American Middle Class is larger and wealthier than at any time in history. Despite all evidence that this is true, half of the people who frequent this site utterly deny it. Talk about an inconvenient truth. Something is seriously broken here.
Look, Mike spoke as a professional who knows personal finances, and I quoted actual numbers (real income, life expectancy, home ownership, college education), actual verifiable facts on the condition of the middle class which can be compared to other cultures and other times. And then we get the same subjective unqualified old covetous liberal whining about some people having more than X. Please, if we are going to have a discussion about something objective, please at least address the objective facts rather than ignoring them.
My blogging days are over. I tried for one week and I estimate I used up 4 hours of time which I will never get back again. Time I could have used to help a widow or orphan in need, and I know a few. I assumed we were in search of truth, not merely venting. I thought that if you do some research, bring in obviously true facts, someone might change their mind. We as Christians might be able to bridge the left/right gap by at least agreeing on some basic facts. The more I read, the more I know that I have expected too much.
I encourage all of you to ask yourself how much time you spend on this and similar sites. At least I am self employed, but I wonder how many posts are written on time stolen from an employer. Then ask yourself as a steward of God's gift of life, breath, intellect and most importantly time, is this the most useful thing you can do to live out your beliefs? Will you be as effective in being Christ to someone here as you would be holding the hand of a lonely elderly person, or mowing their lawn, helping out with a youth group or as a reading tutor to someone that struggles in that area.
Just something for you to consider. I am reaching for my phone now to call a widow who hasn't heard from me in a while. I won't be back. Blessings to you all.
posted on 11.20.2006 3:47 PM37
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There is a lot of confusion and a lot of emotions tied up in this topic. A lot of confusion can be done away with if we would just heed the words of Jesus--don't let emotions, politics, personal situations or what others do/don't do get in the way. Follow Jesus alone. A good book on the biblical view of economic injustics is Norm Geisler's 'Love Your Neighbor: Thinking Wisely About Right and Wrong.' He writes a great chapter of biblical wisdom on what Jesus would have us do. No politics, no partisanship--just the word of God.
http://www.amazon.com/Love-Your-Neighbor-Thinking-Wisely/dp/1581349459/ref=sr_1_1/102-2085712-9684969?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1188422381&sr=8-1
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