1

They'd be too busy trying to impeach a lame duck President...

Yeah, we Republicans tried to pull that with the last President.

2

A lot of ground to cover here.

$1075 per citizen for the war in Iraq.
Per Wikipedia, the Iraqi war started March 20, 2003. Guestimate that the war has been going on for about 41 months. Total cost per month for the chance of Iraqi freedom: about $26.22 per month. About 87 cents a day. Less than a Starbucks, a coke, a candybar, a.... 87 cents ain't so much.

Neo-fundamentalism
Ever notice how it's only the conservatives who are "neo's"? Why aren't Democrats neo-socialists? Why aren't churches who abandon the faith and the Scriptures neo-pagans? And so on.

Never trust anything that begins with neo, can be summed up on a bumper sticker, or rhymes.

Actually, I think you are wrong about the impact of the neo-neo's. I think there is a social law that says the more influence a group has, say, like political influence, the more inclusive they are. Unless opposition to abortion is rigid and intolerant or maybe losing contact with culture. or something. There will probably be a group that withdraws from society, but there have always been those who withdraw. There are those who criticize contemporary culture, but there have always been, and so on. Or if you like, the more the original message is moderated, or watered down, or something. You know, that lady that is giving up everything but bare necessities for 30 days is pretty insular, I think.

3

Joe, I'd be interested in your thoughts about Rod Dreher's Crunchy Cons -- he hits on much of the same anti-materialst stuff that I see reflected in this post (Thanks, by the way, for promoting Kiva -- I'm a big fan of Kiva myself -- a nice byproduct is that you start to develop a real interest in other parts of the world -- I'm "invested" in Uganda right now, so I've been following the process of the civil war in that country with interest -- and I've been praying for the entrepreneur that I've helped fund -- it's a great way to give)

Russell

4

Joe says: "Ah, but what about the cost in American lives? Although all casualties are tragic, its more dangerous being a young black man in Philadelphia than it is being a soldier in Iraq. And if anyone truly cares about the loss of our servicemembers then we should lobby Congress to ban drinking since more men and women die from alcohol-related incidents than die in combat."

Ah, but of course no life is worth less than any other. "Official numbers" - the count of those reported dead - puts the number of Iraqi dead at near 50,000. But this is almost certainly much less than the actual number. Some in the know put the number of Iraqi dead at over 100,000.

And the country is in shambles.

And in the midst of a civil war.

And it appears that there's no good outcome to be had: stay and it goes to hell, leave and it goes to hell.

And the American military has shown itself unable to impose its will upon a country.

And Iran, and other enemies, are emboldened.

And there were no WMDs, and little will or ability to make them.

Still seem like it's worth it?

5

As far as the prospect of neo-fundamentalism goes, I'm going to agree with McKnight. We are seeing growth in the "fundamental" movement and, in concert with that, because of the socio-political trends today, we may well likely also see a growth in a parallel group -- I'll call them isolated amillennials.

It will be the retreat sought because of the situation in Israel and all the disparaging talk concerning the Rapture and pre-millennial & Dispensational theology, and because of the continuing intellectual attacks on the philosophical basis of our Faith. And the Amil crowd has the historic intellectual power to deal with the world, while the pre-mil Ev/Fundie crowd has tended to ignore the intellectual. (Not entirely, but too much.)

And we should not be surprized in these times to see many evangelicals surrender their intellect to the neo-liberal ways.

My 2 cents,

Collin
http://evangelicalperspective.blogspot.com

6

Franklin, I have to disagree with much your post. Yes, there is violence in Iraq. It is important to point out that the civilian deaths after the invasion are the result of Al Quaeda attempts to create a civil war between Shi'a and Sunni. Are you suggesting that we do not try to counter that influence? The majority of the violence is in the Sunni area. Remember that the Sunni's have been screwing over the Shi'a for a long time. Suicide murderers who continue to target Shi'a want that civil war. BTW, most of the province not close to Baghdad are pretty peaceful.

And there were WMDs, and a desire to create more WMDs. Intel recently released and translated indicates that there were biological and chemical weapons which were transferred to Syria. Joe Wilson admitted to Congress that he lied about his report from Niger. Iraq was trying to get yellow cake. Ignored by the media, but still in the Congressional record.

Not sure what you mean by "military unable to impose its will." We aren't trying to impose our will. We are trying to support the elected government of Iraq.

Yep, it's still worth it.

7

*laughs* Thanks for giving my idea a new spin. I love the apporach you are taking and I'm sure Sya Tham Prom will as well.

As to the sitting in the dark and navel-gazing...well, not too much of that will go on around here as we have 4 active kids *grin*, but I daresay they will remember and learn from those intentional activities. It is much more impacting for a child to attempt to walk in someone else's shoes than to just read about it in a book.

Thank you for the link and for taking the time to move past your initial dislike of the idea to a solution that will have lasting benefit for someone else.

God bless,

Tonia http://intent.squarespace.com

8

Franklin:

You're soooo right. I blame it on Wal-Mart. We should have listened to Valerie Plame when she was chief of station at the Tyson's Corner Lord & Taylor.

9

If an attack occurred just before the elections, I have to think that at least a few of the voters who persist in this "Bush has kept us safe" thinking would realize the fallacy they have been under.

I find it amazing how many people on the left and right forget that 9/11 happened well into Bush's watch. No Bush was not sworn into office on 9/12/06.

10

No one has ever denied that 9/11 happened on his watch. This country was asleep on terrorism for 20 years.

All the Bush haters want to ignore the history before he took office and blame him for everything.

A more responsible position would be to fault him and his predecesors. Then we can fight over what % of blame falls on Carter, Reagan, Bush, Clinton, Bush.

11

Wow. How disappointing. Evangelicaloutpost.com doesn't recommend giving money to frontier missionaries or to those missionaries trying to spread the gospel to the lost and starving. Instead the recommendation is to blindly give your money to someone of which you know nothing and can share nothing. Which is more important, eternal life of a new tuk tuk?

You stated, "rather than mock another Christian's honest efforts" when not two paragraphs before you rolled your eyes at their suggestion. Therefore, your first action was to mock. Your second action should have been deleting that sentence and then typing a new one, encouraging people to take up Tonia's 30-day challenge and donate the saved money to Action International or Wycliff or Operation Mobilization or Frontiers. We all need to go out and read or re-read Randy Alcorn's book "Money, Posessions and Eternity".

12

Scott writes: "How disappointing. Evangelicaloutpost.com doesn't recommend giving money to ... those missionaries trying to spread the gospel to the lost and starving. Instead ... blindly give your money to someone of which you know nothing and can share nothing. Which is more important, eternal life [or economic sustenance]? You stated, "rather than mock another Christian's honest efforts" when not two paragraphs before you rolled your eyes ... Therefore, your first action was to mock. Your second action should have been deleting that sentence and then typing a new one, encouraging people to take up Tonia's 30-day challenge and donate the saved money to [missions]. We all need to go out and read or re-read Randy Alcorn's book "Money, Posessions and Eternity"."

Or we could all go out and read the bible, instead. Jesus, Paul, Peter, and James all taught us to focus on God and also to attend to the physical needs of our neighbors -- including those "of which we know nothing." At no place in Joe's post did he recommend not supporting missions, and it's wrong to suggest that he meant that. As for deleting a sentence to hide his initial reaction -- why? Paul taught it's appropriate to confess a mistake rather than pretend we're pure.

13

Regarding Conyers: Don't forget that he's one of several members of Congress to sign his name to a call by leftist outfit World Can't Wait to remove the sitting President from office (in their words "drive out the Bush regime") by, er, other than constitutional means. I posted on this awhile back. To have this guy head up the Judiciary Committee would be ludicrous. (It's bad enough that Ted Kennedy sits on it now.)

14

(Of course, Kennedy is on the Senate Judiciary Committee, but you get my meaning.)

15

On this August 29, I have to bring up Katrina.

This time, a year ago, a had just come in from flagging sagging power lines across the highway in front of my house. I left my chainsaw in the back of the truck, knowing I would need it the next day. One hundred and fifty miles from the coast, we still had our problems here. We still had power, but that would end the next day. I was a volunteer, a first-responder then, even though I didn't know it. I was acting Christian, even though I was not one. I was fortunate, or blessed, as a lot of people here like to say, in that I had no damage to complain of. My heart ached for those people on the coast and in New Orleans. I cried for the lives I knew were lost.

In the next weeks, without power, I volunteered, scrambled for ice and food, looked for work, helped my neighbors. When you have a freezer full of thawing meat, you try to give it away, only to find that all your neighbors have freezers full of thawing meat. We had some no- vegetable meals in those days. We got by. We suffered here, but we did not suffer near what they did on the coast.

I have always known that the people of Mississippi were strong and resilient. The storm last year showed it to everyone. I only hope that others across the nation, faced with death, destruction, and depression, will look to our example for strength and know that what really counts is faith in the future and indominable spirit. Tomorrow will be better.

16

Speaking of international finance, would you be willing to pay $1,075 so that 26,783,383 Iraqis would be free from tyranny and allowed to choose their own government? I would.

Does that include the dead ones, or do you not realize that the dead ones don't get to choose their government?

...its more dangerous being a young black man in Philadelphia than it is being a soldier in Iraq. And if anyone truly cares about the loss of our servicemembers then we should lobby Congress to ban drinking since more men and women die from alcohol-related incidents than die in combat.

Is this because you're showing that it is completely, totally, and 100% inane for creationists to make any argument about statistics whatsoever? (Hint: the sample sizes of populations are somewhat different in the cases to which you refer.)

That's mighty repugnant of you. Just like the party in power. A repugnant party.

John Schroeder asks, "So, wave/particle duality is the "weirdest" physics theory? Now, here is my question of that ages: "Why can completely rational physicists the world over use that theory without comment on that fact on a daily basis, and at the same time decry religious notions like the Trinity and Christ's dual nature as hocum?" Just wondering."

Ummm...it's because wave/particle duality in physics is a necessary consequence of the properties of Fourier Transforms that any college junior can understand (if he's majoring in sciences or engineering, not theology), and whose consequences are easily shown to be the observed, and because a "Trinity" is nothing but incohrence disguised as "logic."

17

In response to George 2:

George 2, come on! Let’s be a little more intellectually honest here. The purpose of attending to the physical needs of the poor and of those we know nothing is to demonstrate the love of Christ to them with the intention of sharing the gospel. Good works for the lost never saved anyone. Only the spoken gospel saves. Give all the money you want to the poor, without someone telling them about Christ, they are still lost.

The reason to read Randy Alcorn’s book, only as a supplement to Scripture, is to help focus our attention on money and it’s effects. Joe may not have spoken against giving to missions, but it is my opinion that as a Christian we should first seek to give to those organizations that support the proclamation of Christ. It is not wrong to suggest that he didn’t mention that first. And nowhere in my comment did I imply what you accuse me of, namely that Joe doesn’t recommend supporting missions. Don’t put words in my mouth.

Why delete a sentence that openly mocks a fellow believers efforts to break the hold of materialism on their life? Because James tells us to control our tongue. I believe that means either spoken or written words. If Joe were to confess (i.e. admit wrong and seek forgiveness) then there is no teaching against that. But speaking or publishing what you are thinking is NOT confession. It’s like saying, “You’re fat and you smell funny. Oops, did I say that out loud? I’m sorry.” That’s not confession. Stating your initial reaction is not confession.

18

The purpose of attending to the physical needs of the poor and of those we know nothing is to demonstrate the love of Christ to them with the intention of sharing the gospel.

Dude, I'm not a Christian but even I know you're supposed to love them as you love yourself. Would you want someone to give you some bread if you're starving only because they want to shove a religious ideology down your throat, or would you rather have someone give you some bread because they're concerned about you?

It never ceases to amaze me how far some avowed Christians stray from the practice of Christianity.

19

Mumon - You demonstrate your lack of understanding of Christianity by your statement. The greatest need of a non-Christian is not their immediate temporal need, it's their eternal need. Once someone understands the gravity of spiritual need then SHARING (not "shoving") truth with them is not cruel, it's loving. To give someone a piece of bread and not share the truth with them (that truth which will save them from an eternity of torment and give them the greatest eternal happiness possible) is not a loving thing. The greatest gift a Christian can give someone is the truth of the gospel. Giving a piece of bread with the intent of sharing the gospel does not negate concern and care. Some of the most caring people I know are Christian missionaries in 3rd world countries.

20

Scott:

You demonstrate the fact that you are not a Christian; since you are commanded to love.

Period.

You're not doing this out of any love for them.

Heck, you don't even want to share the bread with them unless you can have a sermon go along with it.

21

I wouldn't be so presumptuous as to tell someone what their intensions are. When you become all powerful and can see that my actions are out of a heart that is unloving, then I'll be more prone to listen to you. Since you're unable (and apparently unwilling) to see the eternal significance of what I was talking about, I don't see the benefit in pursueing this conversation further in the public spectrum. Feel free to e-mail privately. God bless.

22

Boonton wrote:

"I find it amazing how many people on the left and right forget that 9/11 happened well into Bush's watch. No Bush was not sworn into office on 9/12/06."

That's Boonton's idea of a profound observation. The problem with forums like this is that an observation like the above doesn't get the kind of reaction it would get in a room full of disinterested observers: blank looks and then the conservation goes on to something interesting. Here, Boonton can go on his merry way thinking it's meaningful. It's typical of many of Boonton's posts: full of sound and fury signifying nothing.