1

Very simple. Girls want boys to pay attention to them. Boys have demonstrated over thousands of years that they pay attention to whores. Since traditional morals are completely out when it comes to pop culture, "whore chic" may now have its day in the sun.

2

Actually, whores are great for single young men. After all, nobody (except perhaps Al Gore thinkibg deep thoughts in his 10,000 sq ft home before his next global jet tour) complains about disposable soft drink bottles. It's the convenience factor. I just hope the current generation will have the common decency, unlike their older sisters (e.g., Maureen Dowd), to refrain from exposing their intellectual vacuity in lingerie-wringing books.

3

Actually it is that horrible Irishman Connan O'Brian who has gotten us into this mess. With his famous 'pimpbot' routine on his late night show he not only has created a pimp-chic for the guys, not only has created a whore-chic for the girls, but inspired George Lucas to weigh down his first three Star Wars movies episodes with an endless number of robots and forgetting about actual actors thereby helping to ruin the franchise (Jar-Jar only ruined the first movie).

4

Actually if you read the lyrics to Promiscuous you'll notice that it isn't about a self-proclaimed promiscuous boy and girl. It's about a man and a woman who are in that early, flitatous stage of courting. They don't call themselves promiscuous but each other (as in, "why are you going around to all those other guys/gals when you should get with me?").

I challange Joe or anyone here to show me how the song's theme is "we should have sex with lots of different people"...which is what a dictionary definition of promiscuous or a whore is.

Just behind Furtado on the charts is “Buttons” by the burlesque dance troupe-turned singing group The Pussycat Dolls, mewling about how their paramour won’t undo their buttons fast enough.

You seem to be equating female sexuality with being a whore here. I'm not sure I'd equate songs about sexual desire from the female POV with 'being a whore'.

5

In the 1970’s the success of “blaxploitation” movies like Dolemite and The Mack as well as books such as Iceberg Slim’s bestselling “Pimp: The Story of My Life”, helped secure the image of the pimp as a flamboyant, violent black man. Rather than denouncing such a demeaning and racist association, though, many in the black community embraced the connection. And, as often happens with American popular culture, what was once accepted only on the fringes has now been adopted by mainstream. In 2006, Hustle & Flow, a blaxplotation movie with better production values, received critical acclaim and was nominated for a couple of Academy Awards.

Indeed, outlaw types are always fun and especially if they can be romanticized. Don't buy what the official Italian American Assocations telll you, most people with Italian blood think the Sopranos are very cool and before that they thought the Godfather was cool too.

6

Genesis 3:6(KJV) - And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.

Joe, this is a great topic. The deception that took place in the Garden of Eden is the same deception taking place right now. Images that should be considered derogatory and negative are perceived as good food for the ego, beautiful to the eyes and smart options.

I'm a "black" man in ministry and I understand the dangers of the "pimp" imagery. The problem is that nobody seems to see the connection between that mindset and the many single parent homes in the "black" community. They use women for power but don't love them.

The "whore" image is pretty new to me. It's gained notoriety lately in response to the public glorification of the "pimp". It was once a shame for a woman to be called a "whore" but I guess it's cool now.

The devil did it to Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden and now he's doing it again.

7

Certainly analyzing culture and its flaws is a first step. But to what end? That people are lost and created cultural icons reflecting that should be no news to anyone.

Christ redeemed people, not cultures. That is, Christ died for ungodly individuals, not ungodly cultures.

The Redeptive Grace of the Gospel must not be lost in the forest of analysis.

Collin

http://evangelicalperspective.blogspot.com

8

Colin Christ redeemed people, not cultures.

I have to disagree with you there. Christ came to redeem the whole world (see: John 3:16), not just individuals. The "good news" is for all of creation, not just for our us humans. Christ didn't just come to fix our hearts but to redeem all that we have messed up -- including culture.

9

Joe,

This is certainly and sadly both a contentious and divisive issue within evangelical and fundamentalist circles. So many are taking the Reconstructionist approach to creating a Christian culture that the substance of redemption is forgotten for the sake of the sturcture of culture.

In conversation with some it's a semantic issue as "redeemed" is used differently in the two cases. For others, though, creating that Christian culture is a step to establishing the Kingdom in one sense or another. Unfortuantely many Dispensationalists/Premillennialists are, inconsistent with their definition of "church", partaking in this thinking.

Collin

10

I don't see how you claim that many of these women are being exploited. They are freely choosing this path, many of them are yuppy or proto-yuppy scum, not exactly the poor woman turned into a crackwhore because her daddy ran off when she was little. How you can feel that a woman like Jenna Jameson is exploiting herself is beyond me...

11

As usual, you are somewhat prescient here Joe. As a follow up I would offer an article by Juan Williams in the Washington Post called Banish the Bling. It sadly details the crushing effect pimp culture has had on America's minority groups.

A bit from the article:

Have we taken our eyes off the prize? The civil rights movement continues, but the struggle today is not so much in the streets as in the home -- and with our children. If systemic racism remains a reality, there is also a far more sinister obstacle facing African American young people today: a culture steeped in bitterness and nihilism, a culture that is a virtual blueprint for failure.

The emphasis on young people in today's civil rights struggle is rooted in demographics. America's black, Hispanic and immigrant population is far younger than its white population. Those young people of color live in the big cities and rely on big-city public schools.

With 50 percent of Hispanic children and nearly 70 percent of black children born to single women today these young people too often come from fractured families where there is little time for parenting. Their search for identity and a sense of direction is undermined by a twisted popular culture that focuses on the "bling-bling" of fast money associated with famous basketball players, rap artists, drug dealers and the idea that women are at their best when flaunting their sexuality and having babies.

In Washington, where a crime wave is tied to these troubled young souls, the city reacts with a curfew. It is a band-aid. The real question is how one does battle with the culture of failure that is poisoning young people -- and do so without incurring the wrath of critics who say we are closing our eyes to existing racial injustice and are "blaming the victim."

Keep it up Joe, the church needs to hear how badly it's message is needed.

12

I have to disagree with you there. Christ came to redeem the whole world (see: John 3:16), not just individuals. The "good news" is for all of creation, not just for our us humans. Christ didn't just come to fix our hearts but to redeem all that we have messed up -- including culture.

Culture is made by something other than humans? Please identify the non-humans who were associated with the creation of the song Promiscuous?

Seriously, before one can address culture one has to understand it and this post proves that Joe doesn't get it. If you want to write a post about a song you should at least read the lyrics...especially since you go thru the trouble of linking to them.

13

Culture is made by something other than humans? Please identify the non-humans who were associated with the creation of the song Promiscuous?

Seriously, before one can address culture one has to understand it and this post proves that Joe doesn't get it. If you want to write a post about a song you should at least read the lyrics...especially since you go thru the trouble of linking to them.

And you should understand a post before you respond to it - Joe's response had to do with an distinction made by various Christians between the need to be concerned simply about individual lives as pertains to the gospel, or to be concerned with the reformation of the culture as a whole. It's a bit esoteric, so I don't expect it registered with you.

14

"Furtado isn’t the only wannabe-whore topping the music charts."

I don't know this performer, so I can't speak to the fairness of your characterization of her. I hope you aren't basing it on these lyrics alone. Writers often adopt a persona, and not always to portray it favorably. I don't think Poe's first-person narrative of "The Tell-Tale Heart" is intended to glorify murder.

That small criticism aside, I stand with you in decrying the state of popular culture, and, regardless of their intent, I'm not willing to let Furtado and other artists off the hook for their contribution to the problem. Much music and film is marketed for undiscriminating audiences so devoid of cultural literacy and perspective that they have only a superficial understanding of "author's intent". I see evidence of this every day at school, where promiscuity, dishonesty and incivility are not stigmatized in the least by peer groups, and I ask myself, "Where are the parents?" It's sad that there is such a market for the trash that masquerades as culture, but it is even sadder that so many parents throw in the towel and let the television and their childrens' peer groups to raise their children.

I sometimes worry about the allure of "going along with the crowd" and its potentially devastating consequences as my children advance in public education. I comfort myself with the realization that, try as I might, I cannot protect them from all negative societal influences. Indeed, I would be doing them a disservice to do so. They must be prepared to take their places in society with a clear understanding of what that entails. I am also comforted in that I see examples of students every day who resist peer pressure, who wouldn't dream of cheating or doing drugs or abusing others. Both parents and their children should take note that it is not impossible to raise a good child in today's society.

But it's not easy.

15

Culture is not a static phenomenon. Each generation is presented with the accumulated knowledge of those previous, and then that cohort will test the received knowledge against experience, keeping that which is valuable and discarding the dross.

That's why we don't burn people at the stake anymore.

At the same time, each cohort needs to test the possible against the known. That's our nature as a species. We don't keep doing the same thing over and over, rather, we stand on the shoulders of our forebears and hope to see a little bit further down the path of human experience.

The Japanese have an expression: wan patan durama, or "one-pattern drama," which they use to refer to thematic tropes, particularly those in serial dramas that play out the same way every time. For instance, bad guys come to town, bad guys raise hell. Good guy puts up with it for awhile, reaches his breaking point, then kills all the bad guys. Each week, same plot. One-pattern drama.

So in each of our generational cohorts, we are presented with a pattern of behavior and living and are challenged to either accept it in full, or add our own sense of life to it and create something new, something more adventurous, something more interesting. Speaking for myself, the last thing I'd do is have kids and a suburban house and go to church and fish on weekends and just sort of plow along, watching "American Idol" and football and living a one-pattern life. Screw that.

Instead, I choose a life that has never been lived before. My options are always skewed toward art, always tempered by philosophy, always looking for the patterns that lie below the surface, testing the structures that have been given against those I can design de novo, and maybe I'll get to peek a bit further down the road. One thing's for sure: If it's been done before, I'm not interested in it. Yes, we have to acquire essential skills, and there's a lot of rote learning entailed in that process. But the goal is not skill mastery - not for me, anyway - but the definition of new skills.

And we see the youth of today playing with stereotypes, turning what was the subject of opprobrium into glamour. And why would they not? Should they adopt wholesale our rigid sexual and moral values lock, stock and barrel? Should today's young woman dress in high-frocked Victorian collars and pursue a chaste and demure existence? She could. But I'd respect her more if she bit at life, broke its bones and sucked at its marrow.

Should today's young mal-chik drive his daddy's Caddilac or devise his own, personalized transportation, mixing his own music, streaming his own video, crafting his own language and terms of expression and patterns of relationship? I'd respect him more if he did.

As the older guard, we will feel threatened. We'll rap the tips of our canes on the porch boards, shaking our fists at these new-fangled youngsters with their "Devil music" and scandalous fashions. Thus it has always been. Thus it shall always be. And if that process ever stops, then culture dies, our future dies, and our potential as a species dies. Life, after all, is risk.

16

And you should understand a post before you respond to it - Joe's response had to do with an distinction made by various Christians between the need to be concerned simply about individual lives as pertains to the gospel, or to be concerned with the reformation of the culture as a whole. It's a bit esoteric, so I don't expect it registered with you.

Not at all, please explain to me what would happen if everyone inside a culture was reformed but the Christians forgot to reform the culture? Would everyone go to Church but bring copies of Penthouse to peruse during the more boring surmons?

17

In reality few successful elements of our culture embraces promiscuity. If you listen you'll notice that even a song like promiscious is actually rejecting promiscuity in place of seduction. That is what the male and female roles are doing in the song. Playing a game of seduction towards each other. If the female was a whore then seduction wouldn't be an issue. A whore, remember, doesn't need to be seduced.

Promiscuous is not a goal in the song but part of the game. The speakers call each other promiscuous to say, basically, "you're hooking up with all these people you will be happy only with me though". On the flip side they are also playing coy with the lable..."what are you going to give me when I can have all these other people." Now I'm not going to say the two parts in the song are going to wait until marriage to consummate their flirting but I'm a bit surprised that Christians here are not picking up that basic human nature is at play here. Sexual desire ultimate leads to monogamy.

Likewise the Pussykat Dolls song is about sexual desire. Again not 'whore chic' if by whore you mean a woman who has sex casually. (And since the gong worries quite a bit about the singer's lover not being very good sexually she certainly doesn't seem to take sex casually). This is why I questioned where your use of 'whore' isn't perhaps using the old Victorian definition of a woman who has a healthy sexual appetite and enjoys sex?

18

Collin and I have argued about this before, so I don't know if he wants to go once more around the track here. But, Collin, you did bring it up!

"Christ redeemed people, not cultures. That is, Christ died for ungodly individuals, not ungodly cultures."

I wonder where this distinction can be found in scripture? Certainly it exists in the matrix of western individualism, but then I don't think western individualism is always consistant with the gospel of Christ.

I would say that Christ died as an atoning sacrifice for Israel, the people of God. As Israel was meant to be a kingdom of priests for all the Earth, his sacrifice extends to all people. As man was meant to be the signature of creation, his redemption extends to all the world.

I think it far more likely that the idolatry and unfaithfulness of the people of God, expressed in their cultural rejection of their corporate calling to be the light of the world, was first on Christs mind as he went to the cross. He would be the true Isreal - he would be faithful unto death - and he would bear their sins and the curse of God. This sort of framework is far more consistant with the integrated message of the Bible, then seeing it only in terms of "my personal sins".

I'm sorry, but the whole counsel of scripture is very concerned about how we live as peoples and nations. How many times does God speak of nations and peoples as if they were individuals? How many times does Paul speak of "Israel" or John of "Babylon"? If we can't think in terms of the redemption of our corporate life as races, tribes, nations, etc. - then we are missing out on a major aspect of God's redemptive project.

19

Boonton I challange Joe or anyone here to show me how the song's theme is "we should have sex with lots of different people"...which is what a dictionary definition of promiscuous or a whore is.

Is there any topic that Boonton won’t go out of his way to disagree with me? Only Booton could refer to a song with two people calling each other whores as “flirtatious stage of courting.”

I’ll let the gentle readers decide for themselves. Here are the lyrics to the song:

[N:] Am I throwin you off?
Nope
[N:] Didn’t think so

How you doin’ young lady
That feelin’ that you givin’ really drives me crazy
You don’t haveta play about the joke
I was at a loss of words first time that we spoke

Looking for a girl that’ll treat you right
You lookin’ for her in the day time with the light
You might be the type if I play my cards right
I'll find out by the end of the night

[N:] You expect me to let you just let you hit it
But will you still respect me if you get it

All I can do is try, gimme one chance
What’s the problem I don’t see no ring on your hand

I be the first to admit it, I’m curious about you, you seem so innocent

[N:] You wanna get in my world, get lost in it
Boy I’m tired of running, lets walk for a minute

[Chorus]
Promiscuous girl
Wherever you are
I’m all alone
And it's you that I want

[N:] Promiscuous boy
You already know
That I’m all yours
What you waiting for?

Promiscuous girl
You're teasing me
You know what I want
And I got what you need

[N:] Promiscuous boy
Let's get to the point
Cause we're on a roll
Are you ready?

[Verse]
[N:] Roses are red
Some diamonds are blue
Chivalry is dead
But you're still kinda cute

Hey! I can't keep my mind off you
Where you at, do you mind if I come through

[N:] I’m out of this world come with me to my planet
Get you on my level do you think that you can handle it?

They call me Thomas
last name Crown
Recognize game
I'm a lay mine's down

[N:] I'm a big girl I can handle myself
But if I get lonely I’ma need your help
Pay attention to me I don't talk for my health

I want you on my team
[N:] So does everybody else.

Baby we can keep it on the low
Let your guard down ain’t nobody gotta know
If you with it girl I know a place we can go

[N:] What kind of girl do you take me for?

[Chorus]
Don't be mad, don't get mean
[N:] Don't get mad, don't be mean

Hey! Don't be mad, don't get mean
[N:] Don't get mad, don't be mean

Wait! I don't mean no harm
I can see you with my t-shirt on

I can see you with nothing on
feeling on me before you bring that on

Bring that on
[N:] You know what I mean

Girl, I’m a freak you shouldn't say those things

I’m only trying to get inside your brain
To see if you can work me the way you say

It's okay, it's alright
I got something that you gon' like

Hey is that the truth or are you talking trash
Is your game M.V.P. like Steve Nash

[Chorus]
Promiscuous Girl
Wherever you are
I’m all alone
And its you that I want

[N:] Promiscuous Boy
I'm calling your name
But you're driving me crazy
The way you're making me wait

Promiscuous Girl
You're teasing me
You know what I want
And I got what you need

[N:] Promiscuous Boy
We're one in the same
So we don't gotta play games no more

20

Not at all, please explain to me what would happen if everyone inside a culture was reformed but the Christians forgot to reform the culture? Would everyone go to Church but bring copies of Penthouse to peruse during the more boring surmons?

Of course, but the question is one of focus, which is is what the conversation is really about, as in does every person in the culutre have to be individually redeemed before you address the larger issues in that culture?

21

Dude, read those lyrics. Again are these people saying "lets have sex with lots of people"? Read them dammit! Don't you see the age old game here between guy and gal...back and forth. Hell there's even lines there that make it clear this gal ain't easy

Baby we can keep it on the low Let your guard down ain’t nobody gotta know If you with it girl I know a place we can go

[N:] What kind of girl do you take me for?

Joe, if these two were promiscuous why all this foreplay? Anyone with half a brain reading those lyrics will see that both of them clearly want each other but at the same time are playing hard to get! Even the chorus reinforces this:

Promiscuous Girl Wherever you are I;m all alone And its you that I want

[N:] Promiscuous Boy I'm calling your name But you're driving me crazy The way you're making me wait

God sake's Joe! Even the GUY here is making the girl wait!

22

Is there any topic that Boonton won’t go out of his way to disagree with me?

Yea usually when you have stupid, easy posts like this I don't bother disagreeing with you. Complaining about 'the culture' is for pundits/bloggers a bit like complaining about the weather in real life. 99% of the time it isn't a use of intelligence but a way to kill time and fill space. Another subject that often fits in this category is complaining about public schools.

But culture is an interesting topic and does deserve a bit better than the usual self-righteous 'deploring trash' that's really designed to just make yourself feel better about having a supposedly more refined and sophisticated culture than everyone else.

23

Boonton Dude, read those lyrics. Again are these people saying "lets have sex with lots of people"? Read them dammit!

Where did I say that they were saying ""lets have sex with lots of people"? What they are saying is that (a) they think the other one is a whore and (b) they want to sleep with each other. In fact, let me summarize the entire song for you:

Hey there whore, I want to do you.

Hey there whore, I want to do you too.

(Maybe you should look up what it means to be a "promiscous boy" and a "promiscuous girl." That might clear up some of your confusion.)

24

Hey there whore, I want to do you.

Hey there whore, I want to do you too.

Joe, Joe,

The only thing I can say is you're a better philosopher than hip hop star.

Keep the day job.

25

"Hey there whore, I want to do you.

Hey there whore, I want to do you too."

I disagree, Boonton. This has nice assonance and definite metrical possibilities. And middle-aged evangelical white boy hip-hop sounds like a niche ripe for exploitation. Naturally, the content will need some adjustment. ;-)

26

Joe, Boonton,

Are you perhaps talking past each other because you are using different definitions of "whore?" The most common definition of whore is "prostitute, one who has sex for money." In Joe's initial post, he indicates that he is using a subsidiary definition: "a promiscuous or immoral woman."

I would guess that Boonton is using the the first definition. Alexia Loundras also seems to be using the first definition, because I have seen no evidence that English pop culture is any less sex obsessed than US pop culture.

Joe:
You might add as evidence for your thesis the inexplicable popularity of what we might call "pornstar chic." Wasn't there (or perhaps there still is) a clothing brand marketed to teenage girls called "pornstar?"

27

Would you agree that there is a distinction between sexuality and 'whorishness'? If you dropped the phrase promiscuous boy/girl from the song I don't see a single lyric that says anything about it.

28

In terms of 'whoreishness' in pop songs, these examples are quite mild. Indeed the examples given probably have more to do with Joe's unwillingness to wade through the detritus found in any number of current titles to come up with the more egregious examples.

The reality is popular culture is now a product to be bought and sold, and its easier to sell a cheap and easy product to a cheap and easy people.

29

And when was pop culture not brought and sold? What year did such a utopia pass away? Woodstock perhaps?

30

And when was pop culture not brought and sold? What year did such a utopia pass away? Woodstock perhaps?

Sure, there was a time when music, art, literature and ideals were primarily the result of the various influences of one's cultural, religious, regional, familial, and social background, and those various influences created the substrate for what is now known as 'popular' culture.

31

I see, so like it's a big coincidence that today Latino music is so popular with...Latinos? There's no connection between their cultural, religious, regional, familial, and social background? How did artists, writers, performers and so on make a living back then in your mythical age when pop culture wasn't brought and sold?

32

I see, so like it's a big coincidence that today Latino music is so popular with...Latinos? There's no connection between their cultural, religious, regional, familial, and social background? How did artists, writers, performers and so on make a living back then in your mythical age when pop culture wasn't brought and sold?

Well, quite obviously there was a time where music wasn't pumped through the airwaves and sliced up into little bits of data to pumped through cable wires, it was the product of a more organic process - and it wasn't limited to a set of people on the payroll of a 'media' company.

Don't get me wrong, this isn't some pollyannic appeal to 'the old days' - it's just a simple statement of how our culture has changed. Just ask Bob Dylan

33

Joe:

The problem with your analysis, I think, is your overreliance on that particular definition of "whore." A whore is primarily defined as a person (virtually always a woman) who performes sexual acts for monetary compensation. The application of the term to women who are simply sexually promiscuous was born of a time (mostly passed by) when female sexuality outside of marriage was considered immoral. The reason the term almost exclusively applied to women is because of a long-standing double standard, wherein sexually promiscuous males are considered "studs" (a good thing), while sexually promiscuous females are considered "sluts" (a bad thing).

Long story short, as society adopts a more enlightened view of human sexuality, the definition of "whore" as simply "a promiscuous person" is becoming largely obsolete.

Personally, I don't condone rampant promiscuity, but I think the excessively rigid sexual mores condoned by many religious conservatives are equally damaging. There's got to be a middle ground somewhere.

Rob Ryan:

Middle-aged Evangelical White Boy Hip-Hop? Can't help you? Middle-aged Catholic White Boy Hip-Hop? Ask, and ye shall receive! :)

34

Bob Dylan came long after the invention of music over the radio. Music was big business even before then as well. I'm not sure what you mean by organic. Even today most new music is discovered from the numerous tiny bands trying to make it. The big talent, with some exceptions, got started that way before being discovered.

35

The big talent, with some exceptions, got started that way before being discovered.

For example?

36

Ever noticed you don't find "Whore Chic" among Islam?
Think about it.

37

For example?

Madonna, Bruce Springstein, Sheryl Crow, J-Lo, just about any rap star, Ozzy Osburn, Brittany Spears, and so on. A counter example might be Paris Hilton who was already famous before she began a singing career.

38

Madonna, Bruce Springstein, Sheryl Crow, J-Lo, just about any rap star, Ozzy Osburn, Brittany Spears, and so on. A counter example might be Paris Hilton who was already famous before she began a singing career.

With the exception of Bruce Springsteen and to some extent, Sheryl Crow, none of the people are able to actually produce music - that is, compose a song, play an instrument with any proficiency, actually write a note.

Most of these people are exactly what I mean; packages produced by an entertainment machine. I can only assume you are partially kidding here.

39

Indeed, is this a serious statement or just one of personal taste. All of these people started as nobodies and were selected by the musical industry based on what they perceived to be promise. Were they just choosen at random? While I agree someone can be over produced I think if we got any of these people alone they could out sing your or I quite easily but they were not successful just for musical ability. Remember we are talking about culture here so that would include everything including the persona these people create in appearence, in concert, in video and in real life. Springstein is as much a brand as he is a singer who happens to sing particular types of song. Ditto for Madonna.

40

Indeed, is this a serious statement or just one of personal taste. All of these people started as nobodies and were selected by the musical industry based on what they perceived to be promise. Were they just choosen at random? While I agree someone can be over produced I think if we got any of these people alone they could out sing your or I quite easily but they were not successful just for musical ability. Remember we are talking about culture here so that would include everything including the persona these people create in appearence, in concert, in video and in real life. Springstein is as much a brand as he is a singer who happens to sing particular types of song. Ditto for Madonna.

I really don't know what you are trying to argue here. I said that modern culture isn't organic, that is it is no longer connected to what is real, a product of real human experience, isn't born out of human interaction and communication, but instead now simply a product, manufactured and packaged to be sold to the masses; appealing to base human desire in order to sell 'entertainment'.

As an example of how this isn't so you offer...Madonna?

41

How ironic we get spammed right after you complain about packaging!

As an example of how this isn't so you offer...Madonna?

Hmmmmm,

I really don't know what you are trying to argue here. I said that modern culture isn't organic, that is it is no longer connected to what is real, a product of real human experience, isn't born out of human interaction and communication, but instead now simply a product, manufactured and packaged to be sold to the masses; appealing to base human desire in order to sell 'entertainment'.

Well the lyrics to promiscuous tell us about a man and a woman who are attracted to each other but also playing coy with each other. That seems to be a product of real human experience, born out of human interaction and communication etc. I'm not sure if it is appealing to base or non-base human desires. Perhaps you could explain that point a bit better.

I'm not even sure what you mean by 'simply a product'. I suspect this is nothing but snobbery, like premium bottled water that bills itself as 'true water' when it is really just the same thing as old fashioned tap water. Your 'higher arts' like the opera, classical music etc. is also packaged, manufactured, promoted and so on. It's done in a different way just as the marketing for a local bar is different than the marketing for a Porsche but it's no less real. Your kidding yourself if you think commerce is not a fundamental part of the human condition.

42

I'm not even sure what you mean by 'simply a product'. I suspect this is nothing but snobbery, like premium bottled water that bills itself as 'true water' when it is really just the same thing as old fashioned tap water. Your 'higher arts' like the opera, classical music etc. is also packaged, manufactured, promoted and so on. It's done in a different way just as the marketing for a local bar is different than the marketing for a Porsche but it's no less real. Your kidding yourself if you think commerce is not a fundamental part of the human condition.

Don't take this as an anti-capitalist rant (that would be ironic, no? Me saying, "We must reinvigorate the proletariat!" and you yelling, "Greed is good!") but rather the simple realization that Madanna is bottled war; albeit bottled water with a picture of a whore on the front in hopes that those buying the water will think that they are getting something more than ordinary tap water.

I don't think fundamentally something like music is, or should be, merely the product commerce. It's original purpose in the lives of men was to communicate something to communities in a much more powerful way than ordinary language could.

Indeed, it continues to do so today, which is why we have to ask, as Joe does, what exactly are the Pussycat Dolls et. al. communicating, who is generating this message, and why are they doing so?

43

Well I already told you what Promiscuous seems to be communicating. The Pussycat Dolls song seems to be about sexual desire from the female POV. Is it better or worse than, say, James Joyce's Molly chapter at the end of Ulysses? I don't know.

Packaged music? Yea that generic elevator music would fall into that category as would the generic background music you might hear in a low grade movie....one too cheap to come up with a serious score like Star Wars, Lord of the Rings etc.

Madonna thought may have lots of technicians behind her but is hardly generic nor do I think she is just about being a whore. In fact, she seems to have made a career out of presenting herself as a changling of female forms reinventing herself in various motiffs. That was from the very beginning of her career where she drifted from 'boy toy' to an imitation of Monroe, and so on.

I'm not saying she's great but she is unique. I don't think a big record company could have just plucked any woman and created a career like Madonna's around her.

44

Well I already told you what Promiscuous seems to be communicating. The Pussycat Dolls song seems to be about sexual desire from the female POV. Is it better or worse than, say, James Joyce's Molly chapter at the end of Ulysses? I don't know.

If you don't know the answer to the question you just posed, you are incapable of evaluating the artistic merit if any work, modern or classic.

Packaged music? Yea that generic elevator music would fall into that category as would the generic background music you might hear in a low grade movie....one too cheap to come up with a serious score like Star Wars, Lord of the Rings etc.

You might have a point if John Williams relied on grabbing his crotch and undulating against something in order to get people to attend a Boston Pops concert.

Madonna thought may have lots of technicians behind her but is hardly generic nor do I think she is just about being a whore. In fact, she seems to have made a career out of presenting herself as a changling of female forms reinventing herself in various motiffs. That was from the very beginning of her career where she drifted from 'boy toy' to an imitation of Monroe, and so on.

I'm not saying she's great but she is unique. I don't think a big record company could have just plucked any woman and created a career like Madonna's around her.

"I'm not saying she's great but she is unique" - well, you got the first part right. She is of course no longer 'unique' having passed along her 'celebrity by playing the slut' shtick along to any number of current female 'artists'.

45

If you don't know the answer to the question you just posed, you are incapable of evaluating the artistic merit if any work, modern or classic.

WEll I guess I should have clarrified that I don't know the answer because I haven't heard the Pussykat Dolls' song but I would suspect Joyce's 'Molly' chapter is better.

But you're missing the point here. You seem to be declaring this stuff trash and inorganic but the only real reason you're giving is that it is quite frank with sexuality. That's it. The lyrics that Joe posted do not match his 'summary of the song'. The genre of the song is an old one (a seduction between a man and woman where each gender sings a part goes back a long time in popular music and I'm sure has plenty of precedent in poetry before that).

It's ironic that you got so upset by my comparision to Joyce but Ulysses was quite frankly a lot more frank with descriptions of urination, defecation, masturbation and so on.

46

But you're missing the point here. You seem to be declaring this stuff trash and inorganic but the only real reason you're giving is that it is quite frank with sexuality. That's it. The lyrics that Joe posted do not match his 'summary of the song'. The genre of the song is an old one (a seduction between a man and woman where each gender sings a part goes back a long time in popular music and I'm sure has plenty of precedent in poetry before that).

No; I consider all trash to be trash, whether it is 'sexual' or not. This just happens to be trash that uses sexuality to keep the less discerning from realizing its trash.

It's ironic that you got so upset by my comparision to Joyce but Ulysses was quite frankly a lot more frank with descriptions of urination, defecation, masturbation and so on.

I'm not a President of the Joyce fan club or anything, but I am willing to wager that few plug through Ulysses to be titillated by a few scatological references.

47

The rule seems to be you can write or sing about sex as long as no one would find it sexy.

48

I'm disappointed. Not even a single acknowledgment of my "White Catholic Hip-Hop" link. :)

49

The rule seems to be you can write or sing about sex as long as no one would find it sexy.

What rules? Trash is trash no matter how 'sexy' somebody thinks it is. Plus I don't confuse product packaging with 'sexy'.

50

8/24/06________EO

Onlookers:

I remember walking across the Winn-Dixie parking lot in 1990 with my 10-year-old daughter, when a rolling boombox came cruising by, the hood boy slouched down at the wheel like a victim of the tsete-tsete. The lyrics were clear enough through the noise, and suggested that the bitch and her lover were going to get f______ up when he popped a cap in they asses. This was not really what I wanted my daughter to be listening to

(To say anything would be racist)

at her tender age, just as I had tried to impress upon her mother that foul language will be picked up by little minds.

(The hood boy might popa cap in yo ass!)

Now we have noise ordinances and have the niggas mostly under control again BUT: the point is
your obscenities shouldn't impinge on my ears. If I want to hear them, I'll ask you to play me some rap. If I don't, keep it to yourself. That applies to everyone, no matter color or ethnicity. I could cruise down the street with 200-watt speakers blaring Wagner, but that wouldn't be right either.

I've known plenty of whores. Most of them ho's was good women.

I'm a middle-aged white Southern man, a veteran of Mississippi civil rights marches and Vietnam war protest, formerly a liberal, now a middle-aged white Southern Libertarian man. I'm not retrograding to redneck cause I never was a redneck. I just got a lot more conservative. I got my morals from a good Christian upbringing, and I try to live my morals every day. I fail sometimes, just like real Christians do.

Those who bear witness:

Understand my use of the word nigga. I understand its corruption from the original Spanish. I wonder why it is improper for me to say the word when it is used quite commonly worldwide today by certain persons.

As long as you call yourself nigga, that is all you will be. (Richard Pryor tried to swear it off, but couldn't.) Listen to Bill Cosby. Stop calling each other nigga and dawg. That’s another derisive term. Dawg. Considered in some cultures to be the lowest of the low. Carrion/excrement-eater. Why are you calling your brother a dog? Why are you calling your cousin a nigga?

Excuse my ravings. I find race to be a fascinating subject. And I will follow it wherever it takes me.

Like Hitler and this Kennedy show. Hitler blamed the Jews for killing Christ early in his life, Hitler felt like Jews had something to do with his rejection from an art school. I don’t know if Hitler ever read “The Origin of Species”.

Hitler was probably almost as much Jew as some of the Jews he killed. There was no race difference to speak of between two white populations in 20th-Century Europe. This has been shown with DNA studies recently.

And I'll inject this now, in the name of Darwinism: If we are only different from Chimpanzees by 1%, so how different could we be from each other?