1

I'm sorry, but this seems kinda homophobic and un-Christian. Would you be having the same reaction if someone had thought you were black or latino? Or if an unattractive woman had asked you out?

2

jprime,

Why wouldn't it be funny if someone thought a white guy was black or latino?

I don't see anything in this that is homophobic. In fact it makes fun of some people's ridiculous thoughts on what makes someone gay!

I wouldn't want to be thought as someone as gay for the simple reason that I am not.

It is making fun of people's assumptions, thats all.

3

Geez jprime! Comparing sexual preference to race is like apples to…well, blacks and latinos.

4

Obviously, to my redneck family, homosexuality is both contagious and caused by excessive literacy.

My family thought the same thing in a rather backward way. They thought I got the idea from reading all those books and their anti-Christian (read non-young earth/fundamentalist) views. I guess there are times when you just have to ask if you wish to know, but I have yet to just ask someone on a date without knowing their orientation. Still, I think I understand the lack of attraction in a reverse manner. The usual heterosexual male's fascination with the female bosom is beyond me.

5

Many years ago before I was a Christian and when I still drank and used drugs I started a new job in a large city. One day at work a co-worker stopped by and visited with me as I worked. The conversation ended with him saying maybe he would stop by my appartment with a bottle of wine. When the wine turned out to be Sherry, I thought it a little odd so I drank my beer and him his Sherry and we smoked a quite a bit of my pot. It was a little more than he was used to and he started trying pick-up lines. An awkward situation but a solution presented itself. I started laughing and when he looked a little hurt, I explained that I had used word for word the same line on a girl in high school and with the same zero success he was going to have with it. My business with the gay community increased and no one ever made a pass at me. I guess sending him home from a situation that could have been dangerous with a cute story was a good thing in several ways.

6

Ever since then I have been racking my brain trying to think of what could have given him the impression that I liked men. Do you think I could have been given off some type of “signal” or what?

Or maybe *he* was a gay version of "Johnny Bravo, Baby", with a *huge* dose of wishful thinking? In that case, you could have been a poached egg and he would have read that as a "signal". (It's hilarious to watch someone like that in action, until he starts hitting on you.)

7

Joe, I can totally related to this. My girlfriend's family and friends have often made comments about me looking like I was gay. I found this to be very interesting because I consider myself to love doing "manly" things(meaning I love sports, the outdoors, blowing things up, violent movies, and most importantly women).

When I asked my girlfriend (soon to be wife) what it is that I do that gives off the gay impression, she laughed and then told me that it's the way I dress and my "other" interests.

So I don't just wear flannel shirts and tennis shoes, does that make me gay? I don't own anything pink or purple. Most people think I'm in a emo/punk band based on the way I dress. Does that equal gay? I also love to read (I have an MA in Lit), go to the theater and museums, and have pretty good hygene. But my sheets don't match my pillows or my comforter.

I suppose its just a sign of the times. Gender roles and behavior are so blurred anymore that if a man does fit a hypermasculine stereotype then it means there is room for doubt.

8

Joe, I can totally related to this. My girlfriend's family and friends have often made comments about me looking like I was gay. I found this to be very interesting because I consider myself to love doing "manly" things(meaning I love sports, the outdoors, blowing things up, violent movies, and most importantly women).

I think what Joe's post and the commenter above show is that there is still an underlying stereotype as to what "gay" looks like. Many people are still stuck on stupid on this. It's an orientation, not a dress code.

9

I used to get mistaken for gay, and there was a good reason - I had many of the proposed precursors to homosexuality, like absent father, and a lack of identification with machoism, which is what I pereived as masculine.

After doing some masculine idenity work, I was significantly healed by seeing the true masculine, and allowing that portion of my soul to grow.

I was never attracted to men, but never felt quite at home with them. I could care less about sports, and have always been literary and bookish. Before I did my gender identity work, I had many effeminate mannerisms, though. I also betrayed my poor masculine identity with common "confessions." One time when I was cleaning up after dinner, someone thanked me and I responded "I'll make a good housewife." They then corrected my negative confession and suggested that I ought to confess that I would make a good HUSBAND.

I realized that my self-image had been warped and damaged by growing up with only a mother and no significant male bonding.

Many heteros who give off "gay" signals may be betraying their injured manhood, and probably need to do some masculine healing work. It's not about machoism, it's about becoming healthy.

10

Joe,

Hee. Larious. And all you self-righteous prigs, lighten up!

11

My then-teenager brother once asked me if I thought he was gay because he own a pink button-down collar shirt and liked to iron it. I (helpfully) told him that "Yes, he was surely gay. Pink shirts and ironing them was certain signs." (I was kidding.)

Assume it was a compliment that someone found you attractive -- male or female -- and wanted to spend time with you. A nice thing.

12

Hi, seeker.

Have you questioned whether, by putting so much of your energy into "being manly," you might be putting a wall around that part of your self that most yearns for God?

Best wishes on your journey.

Amy

13

I don't think I've ever been mistaken for being gay. This, in spite of numerous possible gay signs.

Dressed as a girl for Halloween in high school.
Track in school, two years. Too skinny and uncoordinated for football, basketball, or baseball. Always hung out with the girls and was the English teacher's pet.
Played a queer in a theatrical production in college.
Absent, but dominant father. He was at work a lot.
Strong, pioneering, feminist mother.
Today, I think sports is about the biggest waste of time a man can do. Except NASCAR.
A Southerner, but I do not hunt or fish.
I listen to classical music, participate in intellectual debates like this, and garden.

I think my body is beautiful, even at my age. I like pink shirts, yellow ones, red ones. Tight jeans. Used to run a clothing store and dressed to the nines.

BUT............

Carpenter and construction worker for 30 years.
Three wives and three long-term girlfriends, plus many heterosexual encounters.
Owner of several guns, kill possums and sick pets.
Drive a Ford pick-up.

Somehow, nobody has ever thought that I was gay, at least not that I know of. I have had my butt grabbed and been propositioned by gays, but from what I gather, it's because I'm so "butch" (which is like a macho gay guy). When I was playing in community theatre, I even had a "theatre queer" proposition me at a cast party which I attended in the company of TWO beautiful women. He was either desperate or I was just too sexy for him. Maybe I'm sexy to both sexes!

I don't have any doubts. I'm all man. And in case I forget, I have a woman who reminds me almost every day.

14

The time you folks spend wrestling with these concerns is pretty entertaining. And sad. Who would've imagined that it'd take so much energy and angst to be "natural!"

15

Perhaps your right, I didn't mean to over-react to a humor piece. Humor, after all, is one of the greatest gifts God has given us (it might be a stereotype, but I really think it has helped many Jews to deal with their difficult times as a people.)

But I do think that the Christian community is focusing overmuch on homosexuality. It may be a sin, but its just a sin like any other. And all sins are bad, and all of us sin. So I'm not sure why we harp on gays these past few years, especailly when Jesus himself gave us little guidance on this in the Gospel. I can't help but think that our all-knowing Saviour would have commented on this in his Sermons and parables if he'd thought it was so important (especially since Rome at the time was rife with homosexuality). Instead we rely mostly on a line or two in the old testament (which Christ obviated).

16

to jprime:
I don't think that the Christian community's focus on some folks' attempts to redefine normative behavior--despite a couple thousand years of doctrine--is 'overmuch.' However, I agree that it is a sin like any other. The difference in many cases is the persistence in sin, the calculated attempts to redefine what sin is. Many so-called gay Christians will not accept that it is, after all, sin in the first place. And incidentally, Christ didn't have too much to say concerning, say, bestiality or self-immolation either...don't we have an obligation to survey how believers over the past few thousand years have answered these questions, and not just what the flavor of the month in our own culture happens to be?

17

I found this amusing, and am definitely with the "lighten up" crowd.

You first, Amy.
PGE

18

Never had this particular experience. Probably need to shave more (helps keep me from getting hit on by Japanese women twice my age, too).

I found this amusing, and am definitely with the "lighten up" crowd.

You first, Amy.
PGE

19

Have you questioned whether, by putting so much of your energy into "being manly," you might be putting a wall around that part of your self that most yearns for God?

Actually, it didn't feel like an expediture of energy at all. When you are injured and looking for healing, you are strongly motivated, and injury saps your energy. After experiencing substantial healing, I feel fine now. I didn't involve any supression of my more "feminine" traits - I'm still sensitive, musical, nurturing, etc. I just have the more masculine part of me restored, so now I can quite naturally enjoy the more masculine parts of my personality which were supressed or undeveloped.

When change is real and unforced, you don't have to expend any energy to stay that way.

Regarding God, part of my healing was understanding the masculine nature of God (along w/ the feminine). Rather than interfere w/ my understanding of God, it is now enhanced because I understand God's strength, resolve, and demands for justice.

20

To The Divagator-

Again, I think we are singling out homosexuals. Many many different kinds of sinners persist in their sin while simultaneiously attempting to define their sins as "OK" and "permissable". So its not clear to me why the homosexuals are worse than these others and deserving of our entire focus for year after year after year. (might add: have you not persisted in sin? If not, then you're a better soul than I!).

Gay or not, married or not...its all a temporary situation. What's eternal is our and their souls. Banning gay marriage or homosexuality won't save their souls, and distracts us from saving our own. We have more important battles to fight, and better ways to fight them.

21

jprime:

Your reasoning smacks of isolationism. Should we let society go to hell in a handbasket because that's not the gospel? Should we forget about legal reforms to protect the poor, the incarcerated, and the unborn because you think society doesn't matter?

Gay marriage may matter very much, chiefly because once we officially recognize it, it will be taught as a valid lifestyle to our kids in schools - in fact, it will be mandated. Societal standards may not save a soul, but it may save a soul from going down the pathway to early death, which is where a lot of homosexual promiscuity (and hetero, dont' get me wrong) goes.

Some political and societal battles are worth fighting, and we (you, me, xians) better not mistake which ones are which. These bans are not to punish gays, but to prevent them from passing legislation that validates their lifestyle, and in so doing, causes more harm to the family and society.

And as I have argued in Legislating in the Moral Gray Zones, government should be neutral in such issues, not for or againts. Banning gay marriage is not criminalizing it, but placing definition around what marriage is and is not. They can still get married in a gay-friendly church if they want. They just can't push that morality onto the taxpayers.

22

Ten-hut, pgepps -- I'll get right on that.

23

"After experiencing substantial healing, I feel fine now. I didn't involve any supression of my more "feminine" traits - I'm still sensitive, musical, nurturing, etc. I just have the more masculine part of me restored, so now I can quite naturally enjoy the more masculine parts of my personality which were supressed or undeveloped."

Good for you, Seeker! Like I said, best wishes on your journey.

Amy

24

Seeker wrote:

"Should we let society go to hell in a handbasket because that's not the gospel?"

Worries about 'hell in a handbasket' on the basis of a few scattered pieces of scripture and private intuitions about "society" sound a tad hysterical, Seeker. (Are you really sure you've managed to balance those stereotypically femme parts of your personality?)

"Gay marriage may matter very much, chiefly because once we officially recognize it, it will be taught as a valid lifestyle to our kids in schools - in fact, it will be mandated."

Whoaa, girl -- take a valium!!

"Some political and societal battles are worth fighting, and we (you, me, xians) better not mistake which ones are which."

Darn straight, muchacha. But why aren't you riding your hobby horse to save the world from blood transfusions? They're as equally "condemned" as two girls who kiss on top of a ferris wheel. (Genesis 9:3-4; Leviticus 17:13-14; Acts 15:19-21).

"the pathway to early death... is where a lot of homosexual promiscuity (and hetero, dont' get me wrong) goes."

Now, I don't want to burden you with reason, cause I understand you may prefer to trust your emotions and intuition, but would you mind horribly explaining to me why, if both hetero promiscuity and homosexual promiscuity lead to death, you're particularly concerned about homosexuality, which, like heterosexuality, may or may not be performed "promiscuously," or safely for that matter??? Geez girl, I guess I just might not be fully, you know, quite, understanding what you mean. I mean, I'm sorry, does any of this, like, you know, make sense to you?

"These bans are not to punish gays, but to prevent them from passing legislation that validates their lifestyle, and in so doing, causes more harm to the family and society."

You're "doing it for the children!" How noble. I'm sure they'll all thank you for it. I mean, except for the gay ones.

I must say that it seems pretty delusionary and hysterical to provoke violence against others for the sake of "Family", "Society", when you've given no reason for others to accept your vision of these ideas in the first place. But don't worry, hon, I've got extras in my purse.

"Banning gay marriage is not criminalizing it..."

Technically it's "outlawing" it.

Ta-ta,

Amy

25

Seeker,

Good points! And worth addressing!

I'm not saying that our earthly society doesn't matter (or that we should let it go to hell in handbasket). But I am suggesting that we should separate the secular from the religious. And that we should address secular issues via politics and laws, and leave the religious issues to churches and individuals (as in one's personal relationship with Christ).

I'm saying that history has shown that we cannot legislate religion, or create laws that will compel people into actions and beliefs that will get them into heaven.

On the other hand, we *can* legislate economic and physical security. Which are vital earthly foundations for a person's good relationship with Christ.

So as good Christians, I'd argue that we should take care to legislate the best economic and physically secure environment, so that people will freely choose to follow Christ and act more morally. The wayward ones will see the happiness and good examples of the devout, and realize that its the right way to go.

But our current focus on gays is a distraction from this. We need to focus on economic and security issues, not spending all our energy, votes, and money getting incompetent (but well meaning) politicians to try to legislate gays out of existence. Heck, I think its silly but they've been marrying for two years already in Massachusetts and it hasn't destroyed *my* marriage or destroyed heterosexual marriage there. But it hasn't sucked up a lot of money and effort that could have been spent averting poverty, spreading education, and supporting religious freedom in the middle east and asia.

BTW, I think abortion is a different issue because it is a direct threat to the physical security of unborn babies. Homosexuality is different, no more or less a threat than alcohol, divorce, drugs, adultery, swearing, etc.

26

jprime,

I kind of agree w/ you, that currently, the right is a little too aggressive in their anti-gay rhetoric. But I'm still concerned that if we do not address it, and merely let gays have their marriages recognized officially, then we will *have* to teach that in our schools.

Maybe that's not so important, but we already have the problem of defacto "pro-promiscuity" sex-ed teaching in schools - how much more harm should we allow before we step in and demand the teaching of virtues like chastity?

Don't you think that official recognition of gay marriage will lead to teaching it as a valid lifestyle in schools? Has that happened in Mass.? Is this really an important concern? Hmmm.

27

Delited to see that Joe Carter blogmind behind Evangelical Outpost has a since of humour, after all. I check out his blog regularly but am still smarting from his trashing of Old McLaren's EE-I-EE-i-O Church emergent–trashed because McLaren didn't trash homos as sinners pure and simple. You know the bit "call sin, sin!" And forget about calling anise, anise! And cumin, cumin! I was double-PO-ed when the nawtiest sentence of all appeared on the Neo-Calvinist dialogue blog, Dialogical Coffeehouse and sat there like a frog for it seemed like a month, croaking to an admiring bog, with extremely little dialogue. But, anyway, forget all that, and give Joe another chance with a bit of homo-themed humour-writing he's revived from a few years back. Me too! I'm not Gay but I'm God-loved homo!" So much for Identity Politics this midafternoon in Spring.

28

Seeker,

I'd argue that the strongest influence on children is their parents and peers, not schools. I don't think this is controversial, I think I'm merely repeating the common wisdom here. So I'd argue that parents should be more involved in teaching their children proper values, and in choosing their kids' friends. Amongst me and my friends growing up, we tended to laugh at moralizing from our teachers, but took very seriously that from our parents & peers.

As for schools, well they have never taught that smoking, drugs, or alcohol are permissable, yet this has not prevented experimentation & abuse. On the other hand, in my school we were always taught to love and accept people of other races, yet I knew many many racists. We learned both sets of behavior from our parents and peers. If our parents or friends did it (insert behavior here) then we tried it; if not, then we tended to stay away.

Again, I think this brings it back to each of us as individuals, and our responsibility to act as good Christian examples and influences. I'd argue that we blame too much on our schools, government, media, etc. and don't take enough responsibilty in our daily lives and actions. After all, wasn't that how Jesus lived his life?

Anyway, what was your experience: schools v. parents/peers? Where did you learn your morals and proper behavior from?