1

I would definitly sit down with the pastor over some coffee and find out where he's coming from. What's the denomination of the church (helps to find what theology is taught)? Where did he get his degree, and how high did he go with it? What does he think about God? If you aren't sure where he stands on core issues, make sure you get those straightended out with him.

The structure of the church is VERY important. Make sure the pastor is accountable to somebody. If the church has elders, which is should, make sure they are not a bunch of yes-men to the pastor. I have seen this happen before. This is called a CEO church, and the problem with this is that nobody points out potential errors in the pastor's direction (which will happen eventually), and if the pastor were to leave, the church would fall apart because the entire church hinged on the pastor. Make sure there's human accounability.

Here's a big one: Does he preach to the seeker or the believer? A giveaway is if he has a sinners prayer at the end of every sermon. This is fine for unbelievers, but it gives spiritual "milk" to the more mature Christians every Sunday, to draw an analogy from Paul. Where will they learn about God if not on Sunday? It's my belief that on Sunday morning the sermon should be spiritual "meat". The "milk" should be saved for special seeker classes, where the pastor can give his undivided attention to those unbelievers or young Christians.

2

Joe, you next career should be as a humourist! Seriously (if that's not a non sequitur). Your "How to" postings bring a welcome smile to a morning.

3

I sure hope the crack about pastors being "well fed" was sarcastic. Most of them are extremely badly paid. When people talk about ministers being greedy I don't know whether to laugh or cry - almost all of them have the skills to be making much more money, and would have much better working conditions to boot, in another line of work. (Obviously we're talking about your local pastor and not bigtime TV con artists here.)

4

Greg, that rather large bulge on the side of Joe's face is his tongue.

While a parsonage allowance can go a long way towards making up base salary deficiency, I tend to agree that we underpay those who feed us. OTOH, we pay gourmet chefs much more than fast food clerks, so evaluate carefully what you are being fed. A worker is worthy of his wages, but be aware of the quality of his work. There are many I wouldn't pay a plug nickel to hear.

Finally, while it is crucial to fellowship with other believers, remember that our allegiance must always be to Christ.

5

Joe -- too funny! My grandpa was a preacher, dad's a preacher, and my brother is too. Manual labor has been very much a part of their careers. As previously mentioned by other commenters, most churches don't pay enough and they skimp on other things so they can pay the pastor. When the plumbing breaks guess who gets to fix it? When the cleaning lady doesn't show up on Saturday guests who gets to clean bathrooms? When part of the church building needs to be remodeled or repaired guess who gets to do that?

In spite of it all I know my brother and my father are both very satisfied with the career path that God has placed before them. So if you do decide to join the ministry make sure you have a good set of tools handy and a good pair work gloves!

6

A friend of mine says that the trouble with church hunting, is sooner or later you find one you want to shoot.

7

Joe, I'm a Baptist Pastor. You've nailed the profession, but you missed one. Even when you're in the office you can always hit the kitchen for potluck/fellowship time/youth group leftovers, so even while you're talking on the phone in the office you can eat. I don't soak my feet in the baptistry, however. Gross.

8

You did indeed nail it, Joe.

Life can be hard for those in low income or very small churches. Life can be very stressful for those in high-pressure, high-wage megachurches. But for those for vast majority in 100-500 member churches, it's nice work and often good pay and benefits. You can also make good money on the side with weddings and funerals.

My dad preaches in a church of about 900 and pulls down 85K a year. He has a young staff who do about half of the preaching for him and he has never been expected to do any plumbing around the building. He does stay quite busy though with the political infighting common at large churches (or any organization for that matter). And he eats a lot.

9

Damn,
I thought the question was a joke. Going to church shouldn't be a chore. We would all do well to repent and understand that church is about God ministering to us not making "God smile" a la Rick Warren's writings. Go and enjoy the fruits of Christ's labors and count them as your righteousness. Unless of course you're still thinking about the curse word at the beginning of the comment.

10

Leonard Ravenhill, author of the book, "Why Revival Tarries" and other classics said that when picking a pastor that you only needed to ask one question. And that question was, "How long do you spend in prayer each day?"

If the pastor answered that he spent less than two hours per day in prayer, Ravenhill advised that the Christian should run out of the church and seek a different pastor.

Admittedly, Leonard Ravenhill set high standards for pastors, but did you know that at the largest church in the world, the pastors all average over three hours per day in prayer.

And two-thirds of the congregation average at least two hours per day in prayer.

The church has almost one million members.

Hmm - maybe Ravenhill knew something.

11

This is re-hash from your archives. Getting a bit lazy are we? Or lacking in original material?

Tsk...tsk...

12

It has been said that preachers are the only ones who work one day a week and then people complain when they work too long that day. What a gas!

13

Ravenhill spoke in true arminian fashion. The statement borders on legalism. Again, it's not about our effort.

14

Larry,

That was some fine advice from Mr. Ravenhill, thanks for sharing.

Hat tip.

15

Danny,

John Wesley, Jonathan Edwards, Charles Finney, D.W. Moody, Billy Sunday and many other revivalists had Arminian belief systems. And they probably also had some legalistic viewpoints.

For instance, John Wesley believed that all good Methodists should fast two days per week and pray two hours per day. Pretty lofty standards for most Methodists - right?

If you disregard all Christians that hold different theological viewpoints than your own, wouldn't that also be a type of legalism?

16

If you disregard all Christians that hold different theological viewpoints than your own, wouldn't that also be a type of legalism?

Touche!

17

Larry has a group of five Christians through whom God accomplished much. If any of them had a day when he prayed for two hours, it was his shortest prayer day of the year.
I once heard a speaker talk of a fatherly older pastor being sent to a large number of pastors who had had successful ministries and were now working in secular jobs. Almost to a man they told him that the problem began when my church got big, and required more attention and I sacrificed my time with God.
Mr. Ravenhill understands that any pastor worth his salt is under constant attack from Satan and can not succeed without a good prayer life.

18

Larry,
I'm not proposing or praising praying and fasting etc. Just commenting on the fact that when we please our selves with our own efforts the hacksaw slides acoss the Cross one more time. If that's legalism then I'm a legalist. If defending scripture and doctinal integrity are vices-then it's a sin I won't repent of. Perhaps you and I might define legalism differently..Any attempt to be Justified or Sanctified by one's own works. Jeremiah I'm sure spent many hours in prayer but the Bible never records him seeing even one person repent. He probabley wouldn't have had a megachurch with a bowling alley and such.

BTW, Cross Jonathan Edwards off of your list both sides claim to be in his camp.
As for arminianism..I love it. I love being in control of my own destiny.

19

And find one who isn't like the ones described in this article:

Wayward Christian Soldiers
IN the past several years, American evangelicals, and I am one of them, have amassed greater political power than at any time in our history. But at what cost to our witness and the integrity of our message?

Recently, I took a few days to reread the war sermons delivered by influential evangelical ministers during the lead up to the Iraq war. That period, from the fall of 2002 through the spring of 2003, is not one I will remember fondly. Many of the most respected voices in American evangelical circles blessed the president's war plans, even when doing so required them to recast Christian doctrine.

Charles Stanley, pastor of the First Baptist Church of Atlanta, whose weekly sermons are seen by millions of television viewers, led the charge with particular fervor. "We should offer to serve the war effort in any way possible," said Mr. Stanley, a former president of the Southern Baptist Convention. "God battles with people who oppose him, who fight against him and his followers." In an article carried by the convention's Baptist Press news service, a missionary wrote that "American foreign policy and military might have opened an opportunity for the Gospel in the land of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob."

As if working from a slate of evangelical talking points, both Franklin Graham, the evangelist and son of Billy Graham, and Marvin Olasky, the editor of the conservative World magazine and a former advisor to President Bush on faith-based policy, echoed these sentiments, claiming that the American invasion of Iraq would create exciting new prospects for proselytizing Muslims. Tim LaHaye, the co-author of the hugely popular "Left Behind" series, spoke of Iraq as "a focal point of end-time events," whose special role in the earth's final days will become clear after invasion, conquest and reconstruction. For his part, Jerry Falwell boasted that "God is pro-war" in the title of an essay he wrote in 2004.

The war sermons rallied the evangelical congregations behind the invasion of Iraq. An astonishing 87 percent of all white evangelical Christians in the United States supported the president's decision in April 2003. Recent polls indicate that 68 percent of white evangelicals continue to support the war. But what surprised me, looking at these sermons nearly three years later, was how little attention they paid to actual Christian moral doctrine. Some tried to square the American invasion with Christian "just war" theory, but such efforts could never quite reckon with the criterion that force must only be used as a last resort. As a result, many ministers dismissed the theory as no longer relevant.

Some preachers tried to link Saddam Hussein with wicked King Nebuchadnezzar of Biblical fame, but these arguments depended on esoteric interpretations of the Old Testament book of II Kings and could not easily be reduced to the kinds of catchy phrases that are projected onto video screens in vast evangelical churches. The single common theme among the war sermons appeared to be this: our president is a real brother in Christ, and because he has discerned that God's will is for our nation to be at war against Iraq, we shall gloriously comply....

...What will it take for evangelicals in the United States to recognize our mistaken loyalty? We have increasingly isolated ourselves from the shared faith of the global Church, and there is no denying that our Faustian bargain for access and power has undermined the credibility of our moral and evangelistic witness in the world. The Hebrew prophets might call us to repentance, but repentance is a tough demand for a people utterly convinced of their righteousness.

20

I heard this from a PK a couple of years ago and still get a chuckle from it. A pastor's sermon should be like a woman's skirt. Short enough to get your attention, yet long enough to cover the topic.

21

An excellent post Joe. I might add a link to this video in order to best hit your points home:

Me Church