1

The problem is that our ability to process visual information is exponentially faster than our capacity for absorbing narrative details. Constantly flooded with such stimuli from pop culture, your brain shifts into a default mode of processing such imagery: unless told otherwise, assume it is fictional. This automatic contextualization leads to a general desensitization to such images of torture. ...How can your brain make sense of all that stimuli, some real, some fictional, all related to torture?
It can’t.

Actually there's a lot of added narrative context:

1. Video quality. Perhaps in the future it will change, but news videos are made to capture the event, while Hollywood aims to capture the event in high-def.

2. Where, when, how you see it.

3. Our own subtle racism that insists "we're better than that" makes for added cognitive dissonance when it's clear we're not.

The fact is, though, to make the closest analogy I can, when my son asks about the Nazis, I can't help but express what happened, and make a connection to Abu Ghraib.

2

According to a recent study reported in New Scientist, researchers claim to have found a brain mechanism that may link violent computer games with aggression. Psychologists from the University of Missouri-Columbia have found that people who play violent video games show diminished brain responses to images of real-life violence, such as gun attacks, but not to other emotionally disturbing pictures, such as those of dead animals, or sick children. The brain activity they measured, called the P300 response, reflects an evaluation of the emotional content of an image.

Is this measuring behavior or just brain response? Of course someone immersed in simulated battle scenes that are highly realistic will be less apprehensive if confronted with a real one (either in pictures or in real life). Is this news? Isn't this why armed forces have used live fire exercises to train new recruits that have never been battle tested?

Likewise, a doctor who works day in day out caring for dying children is probably going to be more numb brain wise when shown pics of sick children (but probably be disturbed by images of gun battles, a situation she does not encounter very often unless she works in some type of MASH unit).

The question is does this effect moral judgements? Is the soldier who plays endless rounds of gory games & immerses himself in films like Hostel more or less likely to go along with torturing a POW? Or just not get sick when confronting it?

As a reality check, violent images have never been as numerous or as realistic as in our modern global culture (I say global because I'm told by friends who watch foreign news that US news tends to censor a lot of images such as casualities of war or terrorism while foreign news will 'show everything'). Yet oddly we are relatively hypersensitive to issues of human rights when compared to previous generations. For example, can you show me how the 'pop culture' of Germany or Japan before and during WWII could account for their behavior?

3

P300 is one of the oldest (relative to my career) indices used in psysiological psychology. It has been used widely in research ranging from infant studies to engineering psychology studies of fighter pilots (I know, as I was involved in the latter). To claim that it shows anything about torture is simply grandstanding. Note that its publication will be in a social psychology journal. Although this journal is a prestigious one, social psychologists are not in the business of doing P300 studies, and I seriously doubt the review board's competence to evaluate such studies.

Mumon's lunatic comparison with the Nazis brings back old memories, though. Yes, Mumon, and the Nazis ate lunch, too. You dirty lunch-eating Nazi! The old memory was about Zimbardo's prison study conducted with volunteers: everyday college students, the usual guinea pigs in such studies. If Mumon were correct, Zimbardo happened to select a bunch of Nazi wannabes as "prison guards" in his experiment. Naturally, Mumon is wrong.

4

Oh great Mumon is brainwashing his kids to hate the United States jst like their dear old dad. What a shame

5

I notice you left out any discussion of the Bush Administration's redefinition of "torture" as "stress-tactics" in order to be acceptable for use on detainees. And the morally corrupting influence that has had on our military and government. But of course, why talk about actual real-world causes of torture when you can just pick on Hollywood and Madison Ave. as the cause of all evils?

6

Jeff Feagles:

Why do you hate the United States? Abu Ghraib isn't what the US is about, and to conflate the two just shows how little some folks care about human rights.

Remember what famous Americans- real Americans- said about such things:

"Those who would sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither." - Benjamin Franklin.

"Give me liberty or give me death." - Patrick Henry

"He that would make his own liberty secure, must guard even his enemy from opposition; for if he violates this duty he establishes a precedent that will reach himself." - Thomas Paine

George W. Bush and his regime don't represent the America I know, and that the world had respected.

And if that's not good enough for you, perhaps the words of somebody who knew totalitarianism first hand, Angela Merkel, will do:

"An institution like Guantanamo in its present form cannot and must not exist in the long term. We must find different ways of dealing with prisoners. As far as I'm concerned there's no question about that."

Really, I do wonder why some self-avowed conservatives have such a problem with American values.

7

Oh, come on, Mumon. First, the American soldiers who committed the Abu Ghraib offenses were put on trial by America. Second, George W. Bush and his administration do represent the America you know, whether you like it or not. If you don't believe me, go back and look at the 2004 election returns. Third, when did "the world" ever "respect" the United States? You're viewing the past through seriously rose-tinted glasses.

Furthermore, your application of the word "totalitarianism" is specious, as is Angela Merkel's quote. This is another example of the canard that, anytime someone has experienced some tragedy, they are an infallible judge of American policies (see Sheehan, Cindy). Perhaps you can explain why Gitmo detainees uniformly gain weight during their imprisonment; why they typically don't want to leave when they are released; and why the official U.S. policy there is literally to handle the Koran with kid gloves. No, Mumon, we are not like the Nazis.

8

I keep remembering something I heard when splatter movies first came out. How a lot of teenagers were using splatter flicks as background video for sex parties. It was even said that the kids deliberately lost their virginity (or "broke in a virgin") while the blood & gore was spouting and splattering on-screen.

I was always disturbed about the possibility of that sex-with-splatter-flick-background linking orgasm and bloody violent death in kids' minds. What happens if Hostel and its "torture-tainment" copycats end up being used the same way? And establishing a torture-tainment/orgasm link?

9

When my kids ask me about the Nazis, I tell them that I used to wonder why Hitler wasn't stopped early, when it would have been easy... but now that I've seen what's happened to the President for stopping Saddam, it makes a little more sense.

It would never occur to me to think of Nazis and Abu Ghraib together. But if my kids asked, I'd tell them that every army has its share of low-lifes, you have to supervise them to keep them under control, and the AG commander just wasn't up to the job. She became a general officer in the Clinton administration, which makes me suspect she got her star to fill the affirmative-action quota... and then the Army, having to give her some job during OIF, figured she couldn't cause too much harm at a detention center. We all know how well that turned out.

Angela Merkel will be relieved to know that Guantanamo is temporary. Like all military detention of combatants, it will end when the hostilities end. Whew.

Everyone is opposed to torture. Some people can't tell the difference between wearing a pair of panties on your head and having your cheekbones ground off with an electric drill and wire brush. I'd like to see Congress do something helpful for a change. "Definition: No living conditions or training practice approved within the Department of Defense between 1 Jan 1951 and 31 Dec 2000 shall be deemed torture by any agency or court of the United States." Whatever torture is, it isn't something we do to our own soldiers. That would help a lot.

10

Matthew M. :

Oh, come on, Mumon. First, the American soldiers who committed the Abu Ghraib offenses were put on trial by America. Second, George W. Bush and his administration do represent the America you know, whether you like it or not. If you don't believe me, go back and look at the 2004 election returns. Third, when did "the world" ever "respect" the United States? You're viewing the past through seriously rose-tinted glasses.

Well, first of all, the results in Ohio were questionable, as you probably know but won't ever admit.

Secondly, major media outlets like Time and the NY Times were sitting on stories - Plamegate and eavesdropping on citizens without a warrant- that no doubt would have affected the outcome of the election.

Thirdly, today, Bush is one of the most unpopular presidents in recent history.

Fourthly, believe it or not, many people in the world do respect the US, but they respect it for its human rights and adhering to the rule of law, exactly those things that Bush has trashed.

Lastly, but most importantly, troops involved have uniformly said that they were directed from higher-ups about this, and that these higher-ups go pretty much all the way up. And they haven't been prosecuted.

Perhaps you can explain why Gitmo detainees uniformly gain weight during their imprisonment; ...

Man you are just sooo out of touch with current events...

11

mumon:

Thirdly, today, Bush is one of the most unpopular presidents in recent history.

But not as unpopular as Bill Clinton, George Bush Sr, Ronald Regan, Jimmy Carter, Gerald Ford, Richard Nixon or Lyndon Johnson. So...

Fourthly, believe it or not, many people in the world do respect the US, but they respect it for its human rights and adhering to the rule of law, exactly those things that Bush has trashed.

Yes, they respect it so much they decide to become citizens in droves. Constantly. The flow hasn't decreased at all in the last six years. They sure must fear those evil human rights detainee camps. Or govt wiretaps. But at least they won't be executed for defending themselves from rape.

And you're right, Bush certainly hasn't respected human rights of, oh to pick two people, Qusai and Uday. Because they forfeighted those rights long ago.

Of course, some people, like the Chinese and Libyans, respect us for our power. I enjoy having the respect of the Libyans. It eases travel to Tripoli.

But do we need the respect of the world to florish? Who really wants the respect of Venenzuela? How much like a dog would we have to crawl around before we won the respect of the Frenchies? It's like getting respect from the devil. You cannot gain respect from those who are filled with pride, envy and lust. And where exactly does it get us?

12

Data from U.S. Department of Labor's Mine Safety and Health Administration @ www.msha.gov

United States mining fatalities in the last four years of the Clinton administration and the first four years of Bush's administration.

year - fatalities
2004 - 54
2003 - 56
2002 - 67
2001 - 72
Bush's administration
2000 - 85
1999 - 90
1998 - 87
1997 - 91
Clinton's administration

Liberals are trying to blame the Bush administration for the deaths of the 12 coal miners in West Virginia because they say Pres. Bush relax safety regulations but look at the numbers. Despite the fact that coal production is up in the mining industry now over 4 years ago (result of the boom in the energy sector) less people are dying.

I guess less regulation equal less deaths in mines! Who knew?

13

brandon:

Oddly enough, Clinton never had approval ratings in the 30s, like W's had. Thanks for providing the data which refutes your claim!

Only Jimmy Carter at a shorter period of time and Nixon had lower approval ratings.

Yes, they respect it so much they decide to become citizens in droves. Constantly. The flow hasn't decreased at all in the last six years. They sure must fear those evil human rights detainee camps.

More people per capita go to places like Canada and Austrailia.

And most of the educated folks don't come here anymore thanks to W.

Don't get me started on that one...

Funny you left out Maher Arar.

The idea that a Saddam Hussein and an adventure against his (previously Republican supported) regime justifies what happened to Maher Arar, and others like him - and there's lots of 'em; did you see the article in der Spiegel about the Abu Ghraib guy in the black suit and the wires???- that idea is simply, horribly, repugnant.

Today we have reports that the NSA was spying on peace groups in the US.

That is not the America I know, and most Americans find such things, again, horribly repugnant.

Myron:

Don't you know everything is the fault of Bill Clinton?

14

Lastly, but most importantly, troops involved have uniformly said that they were directed from higher-ups about this, and that these higher-ups go pretty much all the way up. And they haven't been prosecuted.

Of course the simplest answer is that there isn't enough evidence to bring a case against these nameless "higher-ups". Though for the mumon that doesn't matter. Suppose for example the troops involved never tried to implicate any "higher-ups", mumon would claim that they were being pressured to keep quiet by these "higher-ups". The easiest thing to remember is, for mumon, no matter what the evidence says, BUSH DID IT.

15

Oddly enough, Clinton never had approval ratings in the 30s, like W's had. Thanks for providing the data which refutes your claim!

No it doesn't. You said "one of the most." Having the second highest minimum ratings out of 8 presidents isn't "one of the most." But it seems you're getting your approval ratings from CBS. Though I do agree that everything is the fault of Clinton. Except Hillary. She's her own fault. ;)

Funny you left out Maher Arar.

Of course you forgot to tell me about Elian. Oh but he loves his Papa Castro.

More people per capita go to places like Canada and Austrailia.

Per world capita or immigration capita or destination country capita or what? I don't understand. But I hope the smart people stay in India, Africa, Pakistan and Mexico. Hemorraging intellect is just one more hurdle for struggling countries to overcome. Entirely beside the point of course.

The idea that a Saddam Hussein and an adventure against his (previously Republican supported) regime justifies what happened to Maher Arar, and others like him - and there's lots of 'em; did you see the article in der Spiegel about the Abu Ghraib guy in the black suit and the wires???- that idea is simply, horribly, repugnant.

Yes, and the idea that someone would have an adventure for the sake of a Nobel Peace prize or UN brown-nosing and then pull out all half-a55ed, sacrificing many in vain, is repugnant.

16

Liberals are trying to blame the Bush administration for the deaths of the 12 coal miners in West Virginia because they say Pres. Bush relax safety regulations but look at the numbers. Despite the fact that coal production is up in the mining industry now over 4 years ago (result of the boom in the energy sector) less people are dying.

Interesting argument but irrelevant. If the administration let this mine get away with safety problems that resulted in the miner's deaths then it is proper for people to criticize it. The decrease in overall deaths despite an increase in production should be examined but it is irrelevant to the above argument unless you're saying that the regulations made the mines less safe. If that's the case I'm sure you are prepared to provide us with examples of counter-productive regulations that Bush 'saved' us from. Aren't you?

17

Mumon - You must have missed the first paragraph of your current events story. The doctors were keeping hunger strikers alive. Some scandal. I mean, keeping terrorists alive against their will so they can't become martyrs - yeah, that's the very definition of torture. Of course, if the doctors simply let them starve, you'd be crying about how starvation is a classic torture tactic and this just proves that the Bush Reich condones torture and has no respect for human life.
brandon - thanks for the help...

18

There was a point when I thought mumon coming to this site with rational diagreements. The unhinged remarks about the election result in Ohio, proves he is nothing more than an intellectually dishonest partisan. He deserves nothing but scorn from anyone regardless of their politics. That he is so eager to believe the worst about America speaks volumes for his lack of character.

19

Well, first of all, the results in Ohio were questionable, as you probably know but won't ever admit.

Oh, puh-leeze! This has been investigated to death and nothing ever found. Bush won Ohio by well more than 100,000 votes.

But you don't seem concerned about the trial kicking off today in Milwaukee where five Democratic operatives have been charged with the election-day slashing the tires of vans that the Wisconsin Republican Party had hired to take handicapped people and people without transportation to the polls. Or the tens of thousands of same-day voter registrations in heavily Democratic Milwaukee, thousands of which cannot be verified to this day, or the hundreds of votes in Milwaukee registered to fake addresses--all this in a state that Kerry won by only 11,000 votes. Nope, Mumon isn't the slightest bit concerned about that.

Thirdly, today, Bush is one of the most unpopular presidents in recent history.

As was Harry Truman when he left office. History will be much kinder to Bush than today's moonbat Left is.

20

ucfengr:

No doubt the data can be found. It's just the foxes are in charge of the henhouse.

brandon :

Per population of the country to which they're going.

Of course you forgot to tell me about Elian. Oh but he loves his Papa Castro.

Really, I though you guys liked family values. His father lived in Cuba. His father didn't want to go to the US. How really intrusive on the privacy of family decisions.

Matthew M.

And why were they hunger striking in the first place? Because they wanted - like anyone else- justice one way or another. Merkel's right about this. There never was any reason whatsoever not to have fair, public, open free trials with any of these people. Don't give us any talk about "security" - Americans agree with Franklin and Paine on this pal.

You're either with Americans or against them.

Finlay:

I've never seen a reasonable answer for the differences in exit polls in Ohio, and your robotic parroting of Michelle Maglalang's slurs doesn't do your case any good.

21

tom:

Get back to me when you're concerned about what happened in New Hampshire.

Or Jack Abrahmoff.

The Repubs saw nothing wrong about slave labor in Saipan until Abrahmoff got caught.

22

Boo Hoo mumon. Truth hits everybody. Oh nice subtle racist slur at Mrs. Malkin. Your true colors really do come out when you are losing an argument.

23

As a reality check, violent images have never been as numerous or as realistic as in our modern global culture (I say global because I'm told by friends who watch foreign news that US news tends to censor a lot of images such as causalities of war or terrorism while foreign news will 'show everything'). Yet oddly we are relatively hypersensitive to issues of human rights when compared to previous generations. For example, can you show me how the 'pop culture' of Germany or Japan before and during WWII could account for their behavior?

I think that whether we are more or less exposed to violent images than our forbearer's is debatable. In our country, public whippings, hangings, etc. were a daily part of our lives for many years. You can complain that your kid plays a game where someone is hanged or shot, but what if you took him too see such an event in person instead? This is what was done. Public executions were often even a sort of social town occasion. People would bring picnic lunches to the town square and settle in for the entertainment.

24

I've never seen a reasonable answer for the differences in exit polls in Ohio

The exit polls overstated support for Kerry in just about every state, and that effect was accentuated by bloggers and others releasing exit poll info prematurely. More important, many of the "discrepancies" were within the margin of error anyway!

Here's an AP story on the topic:

The exit polls contacted more supporters of Kerry than of Bush because of "the failure of interviewers to follow the selection rate," said Warren Mitofsky, who conducted the exit polls along with Joe Lenski of Edison Media Research.

In exit polling, properly trained interviewers are supposed to follow a carefully designed strategy of contacting voters, such as every fourth or fifth voter, to get a random sample.

Mitofsky has said the discrepancy between exit polls and the vote count was caused by several problems with the polls done for the television networks and The Associated Press.

Highlighting findings of a report made public in January, he told the national meeting of the American Association for Public Opinion Research that even though the exit poll data did not line up with actual vote counts, the exit pollsters and members of the National Election Pool did not "project" an incorrect winner.

"All our projections were correct," he said.

The early - and unauthorized - release of exit poll data on Web sites and blogs helped create the perception that Kerry was going to win the election. Mitofsky said he wants to restrict the release of exit poll findings within the NEP news organizations until 6 p.m. to reduce such confusion in the future.

In past elections, early results often become more accurate as additional results are tabulated, but the polls remained skewed toward Kerry until late in the evening - heightening confusion.

Kathy Frankovic, head of polling at CBS News, said bad calls were avoided because of stringent new safeguards put in place by several media organizations after difficulties in the 2000 election and exit polls.

Mitofsky said the 2004 problems could have been caused by several factors:

-haphazard choice of voters to interview

-lengthy questionnaires

-legal restrictions that kept exit poll interviewers 50 feet or more from voting locations

-hiring of too many young interviewers

-inadequate monitoring of interviewers

Some researchers are still quarreling whether the problems were with the exit poll or the vote count and possible fraud.

Much of the attention has focused on Ohio, which had reports of technology failures, voter confusion and overcrowded polling stations in minority neighborhoods. [note: most of those precincts were in Democratic-contolled areas such as Cleveland.]

Ron Baiman, a research professor from the University of Illinois at Chicago, questioned whether the difference between the exit polls and vote count had been adequately explained and called for further investigation.

But Steven Hertzberg, a nonpartisan researcher investigating election results in Ohio, said "we're not seeing significant shifts in one direction or another" that one have changed the outcome of the election in that state.

25

tom:

To quote from your story:

Some researchers are still quarreling whether the problems were with the exit poll or the vote count and possible fraud...

Much of the attention has focused on Ohio, which had reports of technology failures, voter confusion and overcrowded polling stations in minority neighborhoods

Ron Baiman, a research professor from the University of Illinois at Chicago, questioned whether the difference between the exit polls and vote count had been adequately explained and called for further investigation.

But you let the cat out of the bag with your comment; it's OK not to count Dem voters.

26

Finlay:

Oh nice subtle racist slur at Mrs. Malkin.

Nope. Just a nice jab back at her for slurring John Kerry's wife.

BTW, why should giving her Filipino name be "racist?"
My wife's name is Chinese.

Are you revealing your racism?

27

But you let the cat out of the bag with your comment; it's OK not to count Dem voters.

Oh, puh-leeze again. The point is that if the fraud was being committed by Republicans, why were almost all of the problems with alleged shortage of voting machines, alleged voter intidmidation, etc., in areas controlled by Democratic adminstrations? Are you really incapable of such elementary reasoning from simple language, or are you just blinded by irrational hatred?

The so-called voter fraud in Ohio has been investigated to death, and except for moonbat web sites and liberal publications such as Mother Jones, which do their own share of ignoring counter-evidence, no one can come up with any plausible evidence that Ohio or any other state was fixed.

Yet verifiable evidence of Democrats trying to steal states in both 2000 and 2004 (trying to throw out all the votes in Republican Seminole County, for example, or Democratic operatives giving cigarettes to homeless men in Wisconsin to get them to do same-day voter registration, and the above-mentioned slashing of tires, among many other examples) simply gets glossed over. I might take the whole issue more seriously if same-said moonbat web sites devoted equal attention to that.

28

Oh, boo hoo, voter fraud on both sides. Whatever. We all know that Bush was legitimately elected (this time). The entire point of this particular font of wisdom is that torture is unacceptable on TV. How in God's name can we continue to support the Republicans if the blood that they've spattered is broadcast on the evening news? It might desensitize us to the valid grievances of Christians who feel affronted that minimum wage workers at department stores are wishing them "Happy Holidays" instead of "Merry Christmas."

29

Thanks so much for posting this. This topic is one that we need to think about seriously.

30

No doubt the data can be found. It's just the foxes are in charge of the henhouse.

Yes, no doubt they keep it hidden in the same file cabinet they keep the evidence that shows Bush really killed JFK and that 9/11 was a Mossad plot.

31

I don't see much improvement as a result of LL's banning. Now Mumon is the target of the day.

First, George characterizes Mumon's comparison of American torture to Nazi torture as "lunatic". How uncharitable! I don't think Mumon intended a comparison on all points. Where is KAM now when we need him to keep us civil? Is Joe alone worthy of such consideration?

Next, Jeff accuses Mumon of hating America and brainwashing his child because he finds fault with some American behavior. This is all too common among conservatives, this equating of criticism with a lack of patriotism and often even treason. I suspect it is because Mumon loves America that he decries injustice at her hands.

And there is this from Matthew:

"Second, George W. Bush and his administration do represent the America you know, whether you like it or not. If you don't believe me, go back and look at the 2004 election returns."

Come on now; do you really think Mumon meant it in this sense? I thought he meant that President Bush and his administration did not represent American ideals of justice and freedom.

And here we have a mischaracterization of Mumon's view from ucfengr: "The easiest thing to remember is, for mumon, no matter what the evidence says, BUSH DID IT."

It seemed to me that Mumon was saying that higher-ups, who allowed if not created the climate in which these misdeeds were committed share in the responsibility. It's easy to make someone's ideas appear foolish when we caricature them.

"Third, when did "the world" ever "respect" the United States?"

How old are you, Matthew? I am only 46, and I remember these days well.

"When my kids ask me about the Nazis, I tell them that I used to wonder why Hitler wasn't stopped early, when it would have been easy... but now that I've seen what's happened to the President for stopping Saddam, it makes a little more sense."

While I can accept the comparison at some points, Scott, I don't think anyone ever thought Saddam had or would ever have the wherewithal to wreak the havoc wrought by the Third Reich.

And finally...

"Boo Hoo mumon. Truth hits everybody. Oh nice subtle racist slur at Mrs. Malkin. Your true colors really do come out when you are losing an argument."

Being drowned out is not losing an argument, Finlay.

Hey, I'm not saying Mumon is perfect, or Larry, or me. I'm just saying there is room for ratcheting down the rhetoric on both sides. Everyone is subject to the blinding mixture of dogma and passion. I think we can criticize what we see as error on the other side without misrepresenting the other side. I'm not above offering a mild insult myself, but I find myself agreeing with Gordon that a little restraint might indeed improve the quality of these discussions. I think some of Larry's more extreme outbursts were in response to gleeful goading on the other side, and, obviously, Larry delighted in pushing buttons himself. I've done it, too. Sometimes I should reflect more before I hit the "Post" button.

I'm on the verge of writing off this blog since even Joe, who has shown open-mindedness and tolerance in the past, seems much more entrenched these days. Several others are much worse. I don't want to, though, because I remember the good times. Like Larry, I've been here a couple of years. But...

32

It seemed to me that Mumon was saying that higher-ups, who allowed if not created the climate in which these misdeeds were committed share in the responsibility.

Rob, here is what mumon said:
Lastly, but most importantly, troops involved have uniformly said that they were directed from higher-ups about this, and that these higher-ups go pretty much all the way up.

From previous comments from mumon, it is pretty easy to assume that "all the way up" means Bush, Rumsfeld, et. al. Also, it some says someone was "given direction", that generally means a more active role than allowing or even creating a climate where bad behavior is allowed, it means give someone an order. So given what mumon said and the tone of his previous comments on Bush, it is not much of a stretch to assume that he means that Bush or Rumsfeld gave orders for the abuse of prisoners at Abu Graib.

33

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