[Note: This is post #10 in the Blogiversary II series.]
A guy named Saul finds himself in dire straits. His business has gone bust and he's in serious financial trouble. He's so desperate that he decides to ask God for help. He begins to pray: "God, please help me. I've lost my business and if I don't get some money, I'm going to lose my house as well. Please let me win the lottery."
Lottery night comes, and somebody else wins it.
Saul again prays: "God, please let me win the lotto! I've lost my business, my house and I'm going to lose my car as well."
Lotto night comes, and Saul still has no luck.
Once again, he prays: "My God, why have you forsaken me? I've lost my business, my house, and my car. My wife and children are starving. I don't often ask you for help, and I have always been a good servant to you. PLEASE just let me win the lottery this one time so I can get my life back in order."
Suddenly there is a blinding flash of light as the heavens open and Saul is confronted by the voice of God Himself:
"Saul, meet me halfway on this. Buy a ticket."*
When I think about the reasons why evangelical Christians are making so little progress changing our culture, I always think of this story. We want to transform the world but never even take the first step to achieve that end. We never even “buy a ticket.”
According to the Barna Group, approximately 14-16 million adults in the U.S. -- 7% of the population -- are evangelicals. We have an enormous amount of resources at our disposal. We have a large influence in politics and alternative media. What we don't have, however, is a significant impact on our culture.
So why are we so ineffectual? Why have we not transformed the world in the same way that Christians in early times have done? The reason why is simple. Unlike those who have come before us, we are not disciples, we are not saints.
As the Catholic philosopher Peter Kreeft says,
Saints love true peace. They also hate false peace, peace based on lies. Saints hate violence and intolerance against sinners. But they also hate tolerance of sin. Saints love sinners more, and sins less, than anyone else does. Both of these eccentricities puzzle people and often offend them.**
Indeed, these traits probably offend us Christians most of all. We don’t want to love sinners and hate sin. If we are “conservative” we want to judge sins. If we are “progressive” we want to forgive sin. What we refuse to do, however, is hate sin.
(As for the sinner, we don’t hate them. But we don’t really love them either. Mostly we tolerate them and call that love. We are more concerned about the behavior itself than the person in need of love that lies behind the actions.)
So what would happen if we truly hated sin? For one thing we would want to eradicate it from our lives. Most Christians harbor two types of sin. We have the habitual sins which we justify as “small vices.” Nobody’s perfect so we can’t expect to be either. Therefore we tolerate just a “little sin” as the price of being human. According to our bumper sticker catechism, “We’re not perfect…just forgiven.”
The other type is the “Break in Case of Glass” category of sin. These are usually the Big Ones that take the pattern of “I would never do X…unless...”
“I would never justify having an abortion…unless I find out my teenage daughter is pregnant.”
“I would never commit adultery…unless I didn’t love my wife anymore and filed for divorce.”
“I would never bear false witness…unless slandering my coworker would help me get a promotion.”
“We want to be good,” says Dallas Williard, “but we are prepared, ready, to do evil--should circumstances require it. And of course they do 'require' it, with deadening regularity.”
Our concern for the moral decay in our country is justified and should never be ignored. We shouldn’t abandon our struggle against the culture of death or the degradation of marriage. But we should not forget the impact we could have if we would simply change our own lives. Can you imagine how the world would change if American evangelicals simply stopped doing evil?
Yet, curiously, we don’t. And why not? Christ has set us free and removed the shackles of our sinful nature. So what is it that's stopping us? Nothing less than a complete lack of desire. We simply don’t want to stop sinning. We don't want to stop doing evil much less actively work toward becoming more like Christ.
As the 18th century Englishman William Law explains in “A Serious Call to a Devout and Holy Life”:
It was this general intention that made the primitive Christians such eminent instances of piety, and made the goodly fellowship of the saints, and all the glorious army of martyrs and confessors. And if you will here stop, and ask yourselves, why you are not as pious as the primitive Christians were, your own heart will tell you, that it is neither through ignorance nor inability, but purely because you never thoroughly intended it.
The reason we are not disciples is because we have no intention of following Christ. If we did we could transform the world. It’s really that simple.
Picture the revival we would have if we had five more John Wesleys. Think how the “evangelical mind” would be transformed if we had ten more Jonathan Edwards. Imagine how a handful of Augustines would affect the world of blogs. If twelve Jewish men from a backwater Roman province can change the course of history, what could we do with 14-16 million disciples?
If evangelical Christians truly want to change our culture we need to do more than argue, protest, and pray. We need to become disciples of Christ. Once we commit to becoming disciples, there is no limit to how God can use us. If we would just buy the ticket, the whole world would reap the windfall.
*Anecdote courtesy of Snopes.com
**Peter Kreeft, "How To Win The Culture War" (pg. 101)
1
I've enjoyed your Blogiversary II series.
Each of your posts has been a very good read and makes excellent points. I hope someday I also will be able to reach back into my blog and pull out great posts to recycle.
Keep on rolling, sir, and enjoy the God Blog Con!
posted on 10.14.2005 8:25 AM2
When I think about the reasons why evangelical Christians are making so little progress changing our culture, I always think of this story. We want to transform the world but never even take the first step to achieve that end. We never even “buy a ticket.”
I suspect that one of the primary causes of this(in addition to sin as you mentioned) is the avoidance of works. Just about any action, done with respect to religion, ends up looking suspiciously like a work. And evangelicals don't want to be caught trying to work for salvation lest they be damned.
I also suspect that the proliferation and ease with which sin comes to us is due, in part, to this culture of works avoidance, and consequently, possibly an overinflated view of grace... "We can't do any good with any regularity, we're too evil, we are saved by grace.... hmm... lets keep this holding pattern on earth and wait to die. At least in heaven we won't have to deal with this sin nature thing." It becomes very tempting and easy to start justifying sins because there is little impetus to live well.
posted on 10.14.2005 10:05 AM3
Some decent thoughts about walking the walk, instead of just talking the talk.
However, when you ask "So why are we so ineffectual?", you might want to look at the obvious:
You're only 7% of the population.
4
alibidrain, you miss Joe's point entirely. Numbers are irrelevant to the power of God.
Jesus exhorted his disciples to be salt and light. A little bit of each goes a long way. Do you have any idea how tiny of a percentage were the believers at any time in the first 100 years after Christ? Much smaller than 7% of the population I assure you. And yet they changed the course of human history. It is not numbers. It is an issue of how salty the salt is and how much light is being generated.
posted on 10.14.2005 1:10 PM5
Question: How does one reconcile "Culture of Life" with support for war, an inherently death producing endevour?
posted on 10.14.2005 1:27 PM6
Brandon makes an excellent point (regarding Joe's excellent post). Evangelicals avoid works. But why? Brandon says it's to avoid damnation for trying to obtain salvation by works.
Well, I dunno. They have their salvation, and they read the same bible you and I do, Brandon. They can read they're created to do good works (Eph 2.10); it's hard to read any book in the NT without seeing some expectation for Christians to do good works. When confronted with this, the typical response is: well, if you believe, doing good just happens.
Two reasons for works-avoidance occur to me. One is allegiance to doctrine: I was taught works are bad and that's what I believe. Another is comfort: The "holding pattern" Brandon references is a lot more comfortable than enjoying the blessings of home.
posted on 10.14.2005 1:40 PM7
Well said.
Those of us who participate in the evil, earthly system of things will inevitably be corrupted by it. We must cast our eyes and aspirations higher. We must be like Jesus Christ.
We must give up our possessions, then spend our lives spreading the Word and doing good works.
It's as simple as that.
8
George:
Well, I dunno. They have their salvation, and they read the same bible you and I do, Brandon. They can read they're created to do good works (Eph 2.10); it's hard to read any book in the NT without seeing some expectation for Christians to do good works. When confronted with this, the typical response is: well, if you believe, doing good just happens.
You are right, they read that (eph 2:10 etc) but they are more likely than not to forget it or not have integrated it with their other beliefs when the time comes to make a decision regarding good and evil. There is a large, I expect, majority, of evangelicals with whom works are so demonized (haha no pun intended) that any other doctrine cannot overcome. You say as much: "I was taught works are bad...". They are bad, and bad things can send people to hell. Fear of loss of salvation (loss or the possibility of having never really been saved) is a huge motivator among evangelicals to remain in stasis and not act. It is weird! To many, works [implied: for salvation] may simply remain a bad, forgivable sin, I'll give you that.
When confronted with this, the typical response is: well, if you believe, doing good just happens.
I cannot agree more. And I think we are saying almost the same thing with the "alliegence to doctrine" line you give.
posted on 10.14.2005 2:27 PM9
(As for the sinner, we don’t hate them. But we don’t really love them either. Mostly we tolerate them and call that love. We are more concerned about the behavior itself than the person in need of love that lies behind the actions.)
...
We should’t abandon our struggle against the culture of death or the degradation of marriage. But we should not forget the impact we could have if we would simply change our own lives. Can you imagine how the world would change if American evangelicals simply stopped doing evil?
As I have always said, if you don't want marriage degraded, the don't degrade it.
In politics lately I've seen a lot of Christians running around outraged by this or that "sin". In fact, they even claim to outraged because no one else is outraged.
May I suggest a radical notion? That the reason Christians don't have much success changing the culture is because no believes you? That there is a credibility gap larger than the Grand Canyon between what you do and what you say others should do?
From the outside of your world looking in, I often see Christians working like (pardon the expression), the devil, to pass legislation that essentially amounts to regulating what they believe to be someone else's"sin". But do I see Christians putting the same zeal into eradicating sin from their own lives? That would be a "No".
Thats why it's so easy to call Christians bigoted and prejudiced. The zealotry and even anger that they express while going about these activities betrays them.
It's like Prohibition. It might have worked if it hadn't been for all those Christians who wanted to continue getting boozed up. (Thanks by the way, you kept my great-grandfathers bootlegging operation well-funded.)
By all rights, Christians should not need to create a "moral society" through exercising raw political (and secular!) power. If they simply were moral it would be created by default.
If Christians in ancient times could live and retain their way of life while living in cultures so diametrically opposed to them, such as the Roman Empire, Persia, etc., then they certainly should be able to live virtuous lives in the midst of early 21st century America without attempting to enforce their idea of morality on others by decree. Do you want to bring others to Christ through example or domination? Which conversion is likely genuine?
Christian forbearer's of those earlier times might even think that present day Christians have it too easy and are rather whiny. When was the last time a Christian in America was beaten and tortured without mercy and then tied to a fence to face a Montana winter night alone? For simply being who they are? A Christian?
Incidentally, I don't see a great number of Christian poltical activists being outraged about the current Christian President's apparent policy of condoning the torture of prisoners and the illegal detention of American citizens. But then again if he can get rid of abortion and the gays, then everything else is gravy to them I suppose.
posted on 10.14.2005 3:11 PM10
Patrick,
What percentage of the Christian population do have have personal experience with, and how have you personally witnessed them trying to deal with conquering sin in their own lives? Your presumptions are vast, sweeping, and tilted.
Every human being can point at another human being and play the hypocrisy card. The fact is that Christians have a standard to live up to every day. The fact that this standard is probably unattainable in this life is difficult, frustrating, challenging, inspiring and worthy. But the fact is, there is a standard. So I guess it's easier to point at Christians when they fail, since they can by measured by their beliefs in comparison to their actions (whatever we actually know about that from person to person). And by what standard may you be judged??
Why should we believe your way is better?
posted on 10.14.2005 3:38 PM11
'Question: How does one reconcile "Culture of Life" with support for war, an inherently death producing endevour?'
ditto that. so, i take it that no one has responded to this query because it hits too close to home perhaps?
posted on 10.14.2005 4:03 PM12
tommythecat,
Some Christians are opposed to some or all wars, others are not. If a war is just, it is then protecting against the death of innocents, and/or the spread of tyrrany, as well as the potentiality of the significant death of innocents and growing tyrrany into the future. This would be consistent with a 'culture of Life'.
13
Patrick: When was the last time a Christian in America was beaten and tortured without mercy and then tied to a fence to face a Montana winter night alone? For simply being who they are? A Christian?
Matthew Shepard reference. I think we know where Patrick is coming from.
(90% of the time, the core reason people reject Christ is they can't stomach Christian sexual morality. Maybe one in ten of those are honest enough to admit it.)
And has anybody noticed that now that he's dead, Matt Shepard has become a Martyr For The Cause? Symbol of Gay Oppression? That's as much reducing him to an object as the guys that lynched him on that Montana winter night -- Matt the Symbol, Matt the Cause, not Matt the man. Somehow I think Matt Sheppard would rather be alive and kicking in obscurity instead of the nationally-famous martyr and symbol he became.
14
Ken: "And has anybody noticed that now that he's dead, Matt Shepard has become a Martyr For The Cause? Symbol of Gay Oppression? That's as much reducing him to an object as the guys that lynched him on that Montana winter night -- Matt the Symbol, Matt the Cause, not Matt the man. Somehow I think Matt Sheppard would rather be alive and kicking in obscurity instead of the nationally-famous martyr and symbol he became."
Ditto with Jesus, I suppose...
15
I hope your readers don't all run out and buy lottery tickets.
16
I don't think that Christians have to be saints in the Catholic sense. We just have to be disciples.
And I don't believe that we have to change the whole world, just our little corners of it. We have to proclaim the truth, but we can't get discouraged because nobody seems to listen.
People are converted by the holy ghost, not by argument and rhetoric. If we concentrate on receiving that spirit, and prepare ourselves for his coming, our lives become our testimony and he guides us in all that we do.
17
When you folk stop chasing fetuses that are not yours; when you folk stop being obsessed with others' sexual lives that you are not yours; when you folk stop courting the most venal aspects of human nature for the betterment of your own, who are not yours; when you folk stop attempting to manipulate the public square to insist that your religion is the only path up the mountain, which is not yours; when you folk cease your endless chatter about how wrong everything is in the world, which is not yours, AND TAKE UP YOUR RESPONSIBILTIES OF MERCY AND GRACE IN ALL THINGS, ACTING LIKE TRUE EXAMPLES OF THE SAVIOUR YOU CLAIM TO WORSHIP - then I'll come back to the Church.
Remind your brothers and sisters that casting stones at anyone does not bode well for how you may be seen by The Creator, or for your salvation. When you deny even the least of these His Brothers, He will deny you. Get it right.
AND STOP BASHING, TRASHING and TURNING AWAY FROM YOUR GAY RELATIVES. You have done serious harm to your own families and communities by NEVER LEARNING HOW TO SHUT UP AND LISTEN, or truly understand anything, or anyone in the world around you. They are NOT EVIL.
18
Ken :
Matt Shepard was turned into Matt the Corpse. And we all know why.
Rob B :
Having a standard actually doesn't matter if you don't know how to live up to it. That's 2 way different things.
And it's one of the reasons, I think they hypocrisy card is often played.
posted on 10.14.2005 7:41 PM19
The fact is that Christians have a standard to live up to every day.
We all do. The difference is that non-Christians are better at it.
posted on 10.14.2005 8:20 PM20
Shepard’s murder was the result of a drug-fueled robbery that had nothing to do with hatred. http://homepage.mac.com/bdebow/iblog/C1748123141/E2058828894/index.html
posted on 10.15.2005 1:24 AM21
The truth is that he was the victim of a robbery gone bad by two drug addicts.
They wanted Shepard's money to buy more meth.
http://www.aim.org/media_monitor/A2331_0_2_0_C/
22
Joe,
It's called Calvinism.
Brandon sums it up quite nicely,
"I suspect that one of the primary causes of this(in addition to sin as you mentioned) is the avoidance of works. Just about any action, done with respect to religion, ends up looking suspiciously like a work. And evangelicals don't want to be caught trying to work for salvation lest they be damned."
damned by works? That's a new one.
But this is the fundamental problem with Calvanism. It misunderstands crucial aspects of Christianity. We cannot have faith without works, such is a dead faith.
Yet we think it is sufficient to sit on our couch and generate belief. Maybe if we sit on the couch and try really hard and turn red in the face we will generate enough belief to be saved.
But this isn't how one follows God's Word.
Let's take a look at 2 Kings chapter 5
[ 4Naaman went in and told his master, saying, "Thus and thus spoke the girl who is from the land of Israel."
5Then the king of Aram said, "Go now, and I will send a letter to the king of Israel." He departed and (C)took with him ten talents of silver and six thousand shekels of gold and ten (D)changes of clothes.
6He brought the letter to the king of Israel, saying, "And now as this letter comes to you, behold, I have sent Naaman my servant to you, that you may cure him of his leprosy."
7When the king of Israel read the letter, (E)he tore his clothes and said, "(F)Am I God, to kill and to make alive, that this man is sending word to me to cure a man of his leprosy? But (G)consider now, and see how he is seeking a quarrel against me."
8It happened when Elisha (H)the man of God heard that the king of Israel had torn his clothes, that he sent word to the king, saying, "Why have you torn your clothes? Now let him come to me, and he shall know that there is a prophet in Israel."
9So Naaman came with his horses and his chariots and stood at the doorway of the house of Elisha.
10Elisha sent a messenger to him, saying, "(I)Go and wash in the Jordan seven times, and your flesh will be restored to you and you will be clean."
11But Naaman was furious and went away and said, "Behold, I thought, 'He will surely come out to me and stand and call on the name of the LORD his God, and wave his hand over the place and cure the leper.']
How did Naaman finally get cured of his Leprocy? He had to actually do something, he had to go into the Jordan river 7 times. 6 times wasn't enough, he had to do it seven times. Why? Because that is what God commanded of him to remove the leperocy.
I can almost imagine a Calvanist standing and listening to Peter at Pentecost saying,
[37Now when they heard this, they were pierced to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, "Brethren, (AX)what shall we do?"
38Peter said to them, "(AY)Repent, and each of you be (AZ)baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.]
And walk away shaking his head, "That nut, he thinks belief isn't enough! I would never lower myself to be dunked in common water!"
But, the leper remains until he lowers himself into the water as God has commanded. And, if I may be so bold, it is the false and misleading teachings of Calvin that leads to Joe wondering
"When I think about the reasons why evangelical Christians are making so little progress changing our culture, I always think of this story. We want to transform the world but never even take the first step to achieve that end. We never even “buy a ticket.”"
posted on 10.15.2005 5:19 AM23
So... Only a small percentage of Americans are Evangelicals? I keep hearing that some enormous number of us believe in god - specifically the Christian Yaweh-Jehovah version. Depending on the source, numbers from 70 to 95 percent are considered valid.
So how come all those folks aren't Evangelicals? And why aren't your ideas compelling in the least to the Rationalists? It's because you're a bunch of irritating busybodies. Mind your own damn business.
Don't worry about what kind of sex your neighbor is having.
Don't fret about what kind of books your neighbor is reading.
Don't pine over what your neighbor and her doctor are talking about in private.
These things have no impact on your life and do not harm you. If your happiness requires that you force all of society to conform to your dogmatic credos and catechisms, you're bound to live a very frustrating existence. It's worth saying once more: Mind your own damn business and stop worrying about what your neighbor is up to in private.
posted on 10.15.2005 7:44 AM24
Anyone care to explain to me why pro-lifers have no trouble with the casualties of wars, especially wars of choice and started on false pretenses? Or why pro-lifers are overwhelmimgly in favor of capital punishment?
If you believe that only God has the right to take lives away, how do you explain these contradictions?
I cannot wait to read your pious rationalizations.
A little less hypocritical religiosity and a little more genuine adherence to God's teachings would do you people a lot of good, and would go a long way towards cleaning up your image.
posted on 10.15.2005 7:45 AM25
Great thoughts, I really agree with you on this one.
posted on 10.15.2005 9:12 AM26
Are we to become like Christ in order to have a greater impact on America . . . in order to make our own lives more comfortable? Often we mean this when referring to hatred of sin in our culture.
Non-judgmental hate for sin comes from a deep love for others. We see the pain, misery and bondage sin causes in all our lives as it works to destroy us, and it breaks our hearts.
Those who seek Jesus earnestly, who persevere and grow in Him thru the trials he sends in order to make us like Him, will find this selfless love has also grown in them.
As we grow in love, He gives us ever more ability and desire to help people out of sin's death-grip, to see them free and fully alive, though we are not without sin ourselves.
It's exciting to see that this is happening more and more!
posted on 10.15.2005 10:43 AM27
The truth is that he was the victim of a robbery gone bad by two drug addicts. They wanted Shepard's money to buy more meth. http://www.aim.org/media_monitor/A2331_0_2_0_C/
Using Accuracy in Media as a reliable source of information is always questionable. Would you believe me if I quoted a press release from the Human Rights Campaign? I doubt it.
The larger question is that as soon as Mathew became a symbol to America of the open hatred that gay and lesbian people face in this country, Christian Conservatives have been on the forefront of efforts to drag down and destroy the idea. Why? Mathew Shephard is a very minor example of thousands of well-documented cases of anti-gay violence. Yet Christian Conservatives do their best to deny this bias exists. It's as if they don't want to acknowledge the violence because they think it legitimizes gay and lesbian people. As what, human beings? What exactly is wrong with that? Or is it because they know that they are a major source of the prejudice that stokes that violence? Does it hit a little too close to home? Is it because you can't bear the idea that your words and actions are a cause of such evil? That you might be evil, immoral?
It goes back to my earlier statement. It's the difference between what you do, and what you say others should do that is the problem. Until you have at least some moral congruence in that way, you simply are not believable examples of Christ's message. Perfection is not required, just an honest attempt. So far there is just not that much effort for honesty coming from Christian Conservatives. At least none is visible.
posted on 10.15.2005 11:27 AM28
I was just talking about this at church today. I was teaching a class about abortion, and I was talking about how we need to change the culture of our society. Sadly, most evangelicals are poorly equipped to do so.
29
Eric and Lisa:
damned by works? That's a new one.
But it is true in so many cases! Follow the logic. Evangelicals are taught to be saved through belief. Straight up trust in God's Word. Next they are taught the dangers of trying to work for your salvation, and how that is caused by the most evil of all sins, pride. It follows then that:
(1a) Salvation is obtained only through faith.
(1b) Without faith you cannot be saved.
(2) Those who are working for their salvation do not have sufficient faith
(3) Therefore, those working for salvation are unlikely to be saved.
Now, whence cometh the jumping from "a good work" to "working for salvation"? It comes when teaching emphasizes (dare I say idolizes) belief over all else, as you mentioned. Also comes from lack of teaching on action (because of belief emphasis). Finally, other minor issues like fear falling into a social gospel play into it.
I suspect this is what the majority of evangelicals believe regarding the faith, works and salvation trio.
posted on 10.15.2005 1:00 PM30
Note to Evil Progressive:
For a critque of my fellow pro-lifers who are in favor of state executions, read this on my blog, "Eight Iron":
In short, I believe that Christians who take the New Testament seriously will oppose both abortions and capital punishment.
However, I don't believe a pro-life position requires one to be opposed to a war that is fought in the interest of protecting the lives of our loved ones. War may never be a good choice, but sometimes it is the only course of action to prevent an even greater evil from occuring.
See 1 John 3:16.
- Greg
posted on 10.15.2005 2:16 PM
31
Eric & Lisa
You said
"But this is the fundamental problem with Calvanism. It misunderstands crucial aspects of Christianity. We cannot have faith without works, such is a dead faith....
....Yet we think it is sufficient to sit on our couch and generate belief. Maybe if we sit on the couch and try really hard and turn red in the face we will generate enough belief to be saved."
This far from being a fundamental problem with Calvinism is in fact a fundamental misrepresentation of it.
Calvinism holds that nothing we can do will ever "generate belief" or allow us to "have faith" It is only God's free gift of grace that causes the transformation within us that leads to faith and salvation. Once this has occurred the elect become more Christ like and naturally take up works as God clearly commands. Any one claiming to be a Calvinist who tries to hide behind the ridiculous assertion that they could be "damned by works" is not a true believer.
Further we believe that we cannot even choose Christ but instead are chosen by him as a result of God's soveriegn will.
Disagree with the truth if you like but at least know what you are talking about first.
posted on 10.15.2005 2:28 PM
32
Brandon
"Evangelicals are taught to be saved through belief"
Calvinists know we are saved by election, belief or faith comes after. You can't be "taught" how to save yourself God decrees it by soverign fiat.
"Next they are taught the dangers of trying to work for your salvation, and how that is caused by the most evil of all sins, pride. It follows then that:"
Calvinists know salvation cannot be obtained by works,once chosen by God works are expected and hold no dangers for the true believer. While pride is a sin the believer concerned that pride may be the motivation for performing works can choose to do them anonymously
"1a) Salvation is obtained only through faith."
Calvinists know tha salvation is determined by Gods will. Faith comes after.
"(1b) Without faith you cannot be saved."
No, if you are not part of the elect faith is not possible
"(2) Those who are working for their salvation do not have sufficient faith"
Those attempting to achieve salvation through works alone are damned and therefore are incapable of faith.
"(3) Therefore, those working for salvation are unlikely to be saved."
They are certainly to be damned.
"I suspect this is what the majority of evangelicals believe regarding the faith, works and salvation trio."
It is certainly what most of the critics of Calvinism assume, though I have never heard of the faith, works and salvation trio (are they a Christian music group?)I also suspect many so called Christians believe the same. This is merely evidence they follow a false religion and reject God's clear revelation in scripture.
33
I have reprinted Rev. John Haslett Boggs' antipolitical tract, "Our Political Protest. Why Covenanters do not Vote." (1872) on http://classicalliberalism.blogspot.com/. This is a classic expression of the Reformed beliefs on the problems with the U.S. Constitution in particular and secular society in general. From the time of Calvin, John Knox and the Scottish Covenanters, the Reformed tradition has been critical of the foundations of any political agency.
The influence of the Puritan and Reformed principles was a cause of the American Revolution. During the constitutional debates in the U.S., there were certainly strong reasons why they were held in secret. At that time, the Reformed churches were far more influential throughout the American Confederation than in 1872 when this tract was originally printed, and were the constitution publicly debated at the time of its inception, it is doubtful that the framers would have been successful. Many of the reasons can be found in the arguments expressed in "Our Political Protest. Why Covenanters do not Vote."
posted on 10.15.2005 4:25 PM34
This blog is basically asking Christians to stop being hypocrites. That is obviously good advice for everyone, not just Christians.
Secondarily, it gets to the question of Sin. What is sin? It should be obvious that any Christian should affirm the Ten Commandments. Do they? Hardly. There are more Christian soldiers killing for their country, I suspect, than any other denomination.
The interesting thing about the Commandments is that there is ten ways to screw up. People tend to pick their favorite five, and then call everybody out who doesn't follow the other five. That is why self-righteousness is such common a failure among all religious people. (Humanists, atheists and secularists all have the same inconsistency.)
If you don't mind, I would like to point out an inconsistency at the botton of this page. The ad below for "Christian Investing" is like a mercy killing. It is an oxymoron. Interest is a sin, and it reflects the love of money and the mind-set of Ebeneezer Scrooge.
Interest is also responsible for much of man's miseries and why planes fly into banks. To understand how, read a brief pamphlet: www.behappyandfree.com/pdf/TheInterestMechanism.pdf
A lie a thousands of years old is still a lie. Jesus protected the adulter, he didn't paint a scarlet letter on their chest, or put them in stocks. Money is the source of the biggest lie of all. It isn't even real, it's an intellectual agreement. By using money in a predatory behavior (by lending for interest) all of society follows this sin.
Since money is the root of all evil, then why does nobody discuss money?
Peace,
Steve
35
"When I think about the reasons why evangelical Christians are making so little progress changing our culture..."
You preening, pompous piles of sadness. What makes you think you have a bead on the truth such that can ram it down the throats of the rest of us? Your Christian history has been one giant stack of blood, war, and sorrow for everyone you've come into contact with. If you call yourself a "Christian," it's because you've been brainwashed. You have murdered and tortured hundreds of thousands for century upon century. You're lily-livered terrified of that vast underground torture chamber called "hell" that someone made up to keep you in chains. Come on. Give it up. Get healthy. Your "religion" is a cruel and dangerous farce. Go read the studies that have been done correlating god religions with homicide, suicide, STD rates, teen pregnancy, and so on, at http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2-1798944,00.html and
http://moses.creighton.edu/JRS/pdf/2005-11.pdf
36
Steve - Good try but the correct quote is "the LOVE of money is a root of all kinds of evil."
Athana - Chairman Mao Tse-Tung, Adolf Hitler, Joe Stalin, Pol Pot and a bunch of others would certainly agree with you. Your hatred comes close to matching theirs.
posted on 10.15.2005 9:12 PM37
Athana
"Your Christian history has been one giant stack of blood, war, and sorrow for everyone you've come into contact with."
In fact this describes the reality for all in the fallen world, Christians included.
Psalm 130:3 says, "If you, O LORD, kept a record of sins, O Lord who could stand? ... "But with you there is forgivness" (v4)
As James writes "For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it."
but Romans 3:21-24 provides us with reassurance
"But now a righteousness from God, apart from law has been made known, to which the law and Prophets testify. This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.
Since you're handing out free advice let me return the favour ,repent and beg God for forgivness from the sins of your own life, hell is real and is reserved for those who reject God's revelation.
38
The lack of success could be many do not want to turn from their sin and walk with God.
They love their sin so much, that if there is a hell, their willing to go to hell to enjoy the sins they love so much.
How can one who claims to be a child of God use lottery tickets in such a manner is beyond me. Maybe it shows your lack of knowledge or understanding of God and the Bible.
posted on 10.15.2005 9:34 PM39
I just read a really good book called Millionaire Republican by Wayne Ally Root. He answers a lot of the questions about how God can lead a person to make money. Check out www.millionarierepublican.com
He is giving part of the proceeds to a christian orphanage.
God bless you.
posted on 10.15.2005 10:01 PM40
(Mark 4:3-9) “Listen to this! Behold, the sower went out to sow; as he was sowing, some seed fell beside the road, and the birds came and ate it up. “Other seed fell on the rocky ground where it did not have much soil; and immediately it sprang up because it had no depth of soil. “And after the sun had risen, it was scorched; and because it had no root, it withered away. “Other seed fell among the thorns, and the thorns came up and choked it, and it yielded no crop. “Other seeds fell into the good soil, and as they grew up and increased, they yielded a crop and produced thirty, sixty, and a hundredfold.” And He was saying, “He who has ears to hear, let him hear.” (Mark 4:3-9)
posted on 10.15.2005 11:30 PM41
I am old and have been through my culture wars: debated Krishna's in airports, consumed days of Jehovah Witness' time on my door step, conversed with fellow passengers on airplanes, sent Bibles and books, and probably others but their memories are locked in my dying neurons.
Now I sit in my cube at work watching the young do their evangelizing. The loudest is also the most pompous in other areas of his life. The hard working, humble, quiet one is divorced and living with her young son and new boy friend in her new house. The company owner's son bemoans his lack of money to buy the things he sees. But all have the Bibles on the desks and/or verses pinned to the cushy cube walls.
I am torn between who needs the witnessing most, those making no pretense or those relying on grace abundantly.
And I really wonder if I was so ineffective. And fearful of my God sitting on the throne.
42
Scott writes:
"This is merely evidence they follow a false religion and reject God's clear revelation in scripture."
And my response to Scott is, "So what?"
In light of his other statements:
"No, if you are not part of the elect faith is not possible"
If faith is not possible because you are not chosen by God to be a member of His elect, then does it matter? They only follow a false religion because anything else for them is not possible. By your own words.
posted on 10.16.2005 4:58 AM43
Scott also wrote:
"Disagree with the truth if you like but at least know what you are talking about first."
Why should I bother to know what i'm talking about? If i'm not of the elect it's not really possible for me to have faith anyway, at least, according to your view.
If I look too deeply I may find that I wasn't chosen to be a member of the elect. Imagine the suffereing that would cause if people knew they weren't among the elect?
Destined for Hell and nothing you can do about it.
posted on 10.16.2005 5:01 AM44
Scott, I never said anything about Calvinists. I'm talking about evangelicals. In a culture as narcissistic as ours, a message of election, no matter how emphatically it is preached, falls on deaf ears. I believe that most North American evangelicals are not even complete TULIPs. They say they are but they don't believe it. Follow their actions.
Calvinists know salvation cannot be obtained by works,once chosen by God works are expected and hold no dangers for the true believer. While pride is a sin the believer concerned that pride may be the motivation for performing works can choose to do them anonymously
That is a naive view of how pride works. Are you still in college? Pride comes out of a greater sense of self that there actually is, among other things. It acts for many reasons. The occassions for pride to work to glean praise from men are comparatively few. There is no anonymity before God, besides.
posted on 10.16.2005 11:29 AM45
"But this is the fundamental problem with Calvanism. It misunderstands crucial aspects of Christianity. We cannot have faith without works, such is a dead faith....
Perhaps Calvinism has it right.
This equation does not work:
faith (+ works) = salvation
This one does:
faith = salvation (+ works)
Works do not earn (or keep) salvation - it proves/evidences the salvation.
posted on 10.16.2005 12:53 PM46
Brandon
"In a culture as narcissistic as ours, a message of election, no matter how emphatically it is preached, falls on deaf ears."
The elect are transformed (regenerated) by God so that the Gospel is irresistable, the reprobates (non-elect) are indeed the deaf ears in your example by the sovereign will of God.
"I believe that most North American evangelicals are not even complete TULIPs. They say they are but they don't believe it. Follow their actions."
TULIP refers to the 5 basic points of Calvinism so your earlier evasion notwithstanding you now appear to be referring to Calvinists directly. Having said that I do agree with your assesment, that most are not true believers.
"That is a naive view of how pride works."
It was an example of one form of pride in action and how to cope with it, the statement was not intended to be the definitive description of pride in all of its complexity.
Are you still in college?
No
"Pride comes out of a greater sense of self that there actually is, among other things."
This is a naive way of how to structure a coherent sentence.
"The occassions for pride to work to glean praise from men are comparatively few."
??
"There is no anonymity before God, besides."
I agree.
posted on 10.16.2005 1:42 PM47
"I believe that most North American evangelicals are not even complete TULIPs. They say they are but they don't believe it. Follow their actions."
TULIP refers to the 5 basic points of Calvinism so your earlier evasion notwithstanding you now appear to be referring to Calvinists directly. Having said that I do agree with your assesment, that most are not true believers.
No, people who don't adhere at least to TULIP or some close variation thereof cannot be considered Calvinists, or perhaps are the most marginal of Calvinists. Would you agree? Hence, most aren't Calvinists and therefore when referring to evangelicals I am not primarily referring to Calvinists.
It still remains, however, that evangelicals have an averse attitude towards works and that is part of the reason works aren't a big part of their lives. By your reckoning, however, there are very few Christians at all. If that is true, I would attribute a great part of the lack of influence to size.
Joe:
I really liked what you wrote about sin and simply wanting to. We seriously often don't believe we are living in the kingdom of heaven, that we aren't empowered by the spirit to do good, and that we may as well absord all the grace we can.
Athana:
What makes you think you have a bead on the truth such that can ram it down the throats of the rest of us?
And what makes you think you have one bead of truth that can legitimately protest if we do ram it down your throat? It is talk like yours that has echoed always through history and that has produced the worst examples of might making right.
posted on 10.16.2005 2:31 PM48
Scott,
sorry, instead of saying
It still remains, however, that evangelicals have an averse attitude towards works and that is part of the reason works aren't a big part of their lives.
I meant to say
It still remains, however, that evangelicals have an averse attitude towards works and that is part of the reason that aren't as effective at changing the cutlure.
posted on 10.16.2005 2:34 PM49
One observation regarding the whole issue of why evangelicals don't, nor should have impact on the culture comes from Jesus himself. "He who is without sin should cast the first stone."
posted on 10.16.2005 6:57 PM50
Steven Perry, Yes, then,
...Jesus again spoke to them, saying, “I am the Light of the world; he who follows Me will not walk in the darkness, but will have the Light of life.” (John 8:12)
And
...“Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin. “The slave does not remain in the house forever; the son does remain forever. “So if the Son makes you free, you will be free indeed...(John 8:34-36)
posted on 10.16.2005 9:22 PM51
Ellen wrote:
"This one does:
faith = salvation (+ works)
Works do not earn (or keep) salvation - it proves/evidences the salvation."
Of course you are right. But a Calvanist wouldn't agree with you. They would say Grace = Salvation (Faith + works) or something along those lines. Or maybe they would say Mercy + Grace = Salvation.
I'm not entirely sure. As is the case with most people if you put two calvinists in a room they would probably disagree with each other.
But ive not met too many Calvinists who think you need to have faith. Faith comes after you are the elect, not before. So even your faith cannot be a credit to you, everything comes from God.
I'm keeping my fingers crossed that ive been picked. What else can I do?
posted on 10.17.2005 12:56 AM52
When God sees this discourse is he laughing or crying?
I liked the original blog and most of the ones after it. I helped me to understand some things about evangelical beliefs. I could NOT understand why the church I go to (evangelical) does not do anything for disadvantaged people at all, only contribute to missions.
I do not agree with it, but at least I understand it. Thanks.
53
What you say is so true. People who claim that they are good are now questioning our president who was chosen by God. Our president is guided by divine wisdom in choosing who should be on the Supreme Court, but so many people who say they are not decent have joined the terrorist loving traitor Democrat traitors in criticizing him. They don't even think about our troops in Iraq and how this demoralizes them!
We need to get a list of such people and destroy their credibility like we did with traitors like McCain and Hagel.
posted on 10.17.2005 1:11 PM54
Of course you are right. But a Calvanist wouldn't agree with you...But ive not met too many Calvinists who think you need to have faith.
(chuckles)
I'm a Calvinist.
As the Westminster Confession of Faith says, "Faith, thus receiving and resting on Christ and his righteousness, is the alone instrument of justification: yet is it not alone in the person justified, but is ever accompanied with all other saving graces, and is no dead faith, but worketh by love."
posted on 10.17.2005 3:12 PM55
I have read a lot of the posts and comments to this little article. I'm a christian. I gave up on the dogma of organized religion many moons ago as Man's attempt to control society. Religion in all of it's wonderful forms is simply Man's way of controlling the masses. Read the Bible. It doesn't say go to church. It doesn't say a lot of the ideas and practices that we have today in organized religion.
IF you believe in God, YOU believe in God. It does not mean the rest of the world has the same thinking. Buddhists are people too. They believe in the same message of being good and kind to your neighbors and try to the right thing as much as possible.
So what sets evangelical apart from other religions. It has the assumption that the church should change and control society to the glory of God. Guess what God doesn't want our society. He doesn't want any society cause he doesn't care. We are a blip on the millenium. We as humans think our little lives and problems are so significant when in the scheme of things we are gnats on the nose of time.
The Bible you read is not the Bible from 300 years ago which is not the Bible from 1000 years ago which is not the Bible of Jesus since he didn't have one. These are all writing of a man's (regardless of your beliefs) life who preached about the hypocrits amongst his religion (Judaism)and wanted to change his religion into a friendlier and kinder religion that was neither exclusive nor profitable to the rich. We have created the exact same political and society problems that Jesus was fighting. Leave to the Roman's Roman things. Society and law are the provinces of secular judgment not religion because even the Bible understood that religion should not be injected into secular life.
If you want to be a good Christian start with being a good person. Do the right thing. Help the guy next to you even if he is a heathen cause heathens need love too, otherwise all we would have is the Catholic Church.
posted on 10.17.2005 3:59 PM56
Decent Person said: What you say is so true. People who claim that they are good are now questioning our president who was chosen by God. Our president is guided by divine wisdom in choosing who should be on the Supreme Court, but so many people who say they are not decent have joined the terrorist loving traitor Democrat traitors in criticizing him. They don't even think about our troops in Iraq and how this demoralizes them!
We need to get a list of such people and destroy their credibility like we did with traitors like McCain and Hagel.
We also welcome the NAZI party to this website. I was not aware that having a differing opinion or should I say an informed opinion from the evangelical right means we should tear down good people because they don't believe your BS.
57
I rarely read the comments on a lot of these posts anymore because they always turn into (and a lot of the times, start with) a non-Christian bashing the ideas that Joe presents. (Who comes to an evangelical board just to argue??) But after reading his great post, I thought, "Wow, what could anyone say against that?"
I guess I got my answer.
Keep up the great work, Joe.
posted on 10.17.2005 4:48 PM58
decent person
People who claim that they are good are now questioning our president who was chosen by God. Our president is guided by divine wisdom in choosing who should be on the Supreme Court
Wow. This decent person must be very close to the source of the purest and most potent evangelical crack. If only there was a way to get massive amounts of that stuff and put effective doses secretly into the most popular cookies and fruit juices, we wouldn't have all these problems.
posted on 10.17.2005 4:58 PM59
Michael wrote:
"But after reading his great post, I thought, "Wow, what could anyone say against that?"
I guess I got my answer."
I don't know to whom you are referring but since I was the previous post.... I was expanding on the idea of action for goodness sake not to "go to heaven" nor "to preach to the other side" but to get the message of God across in our own lives and stop judging others before we can fix ourselves.
I go to sites like this to see what people that aren't in my normal circle think and as I can see Man is still holding up the banner declaring who He is without the love of God inside him showing who he is. If you cannot forgive and love the person next to you no matter who or what they are then you are as much a heathen as those you say you are saving.
posted on 10.17.2005 5:02 PM60
You people are turning this country into a theocracy. Pretty ironic concidering Bush is the anti-christ.
posted on 10.17.2005 6:14 PM61
decent person, please remember that Jesus said,
“You have heard that it was said, ‘YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR and hate your enemy.’ “But I say to you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven; for He causes His sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. (Matthew 5:43-45)
posted on 10.17.2005 6:36 PM62
The Jesuits say, “give me the boy and I’ll give you the man.” That is just so true but how can it be? Very simply a child is born not knowing anything, they have no bias, beliefs or fears. The do have a mind which is devoid of anything but is a potential sponge. Their mind desperately wants to be filled with knowledge, what sort it doesn’t matter.
When religions started the vast majority of the population were illiterate. The few educated people learned very quickly they could influence the illiterate masses by persuasive story telling – just look at children at a kindergarten. Persuading people to follow their belief systems wasn’t very difficult. Something else became evident very quickly. A new human trait immerged – power. Power over people became an addictive drug so charismatic, educated people learned they could control masses of people by their eloquence and the power of the spoken word.
Having learnt this great truth a few people decided they could use it for universal good and set about preparing a manifesto for all within their realm of influence. Their followers prescribed to the new faith and went about bringing it to others within their circle of influence. You could say Amway came along a millennium or two later with the same missionary zeal.
A mind that has nothing to compare the infusion of new knowledge with accepts it as gospel. Hence the Jesuits expression, which is as true today as it was when first uttered.
So what went wrong along the way? As we can all see most of the conflict in the world over the last two millennium has been caused by religion or more importantly the interpretation of it. Interpretation is the key word as followers of the original benefactors make the most of it for their own purposes.
To see how a message can be misinterpreted do this. Sit (say) 10 people in a line and write a short message on a piece of paper. Give it to the first person to commit to memory, once they have done that ask them to whisper it to the person next to them and so on until it has been relayed to the 10th person. Then ask the last one to stand up and tell the audience what they were told. Invariable you’ll find it has little if anything to do with the original message. Each person has put his or her mark on the message to personalise it. That quite simply is what has happened to religion over the millenniums. For those with warlike tendencies religion is a wonderful vehicle to achieve their aims. See how the various factions use the so called faiths today for their own ends. Their critics blame the religious philosophy but that is not correct it is the interpretation that is at fault.
How can it be changed? While there is greed, sloth and personal gain to be achieved in the name of religion, not much. If you think this is far fetched just look at the Bush neocons in Washington. They each have more money than they can spend in 10 lifetimes. It is power over other’s that they crave – just another religion really.
63
I write as an Americophile who once lived there, but as a citizen in Australia. I think Joe, as a Calvinist, chose a very unfortunate analogy: "Saul, meet me halfway on this. Buy a ticket."
Chance is a Deceiver and unreal, isn't it? Christians believe in the Providence of God, never Chance. Read Job.
Another poster misquoted a verse which should read "Love-of-Money is the root of all-kinds-of evil."
To the extent that Americans put their careers [money, pleasure mostly] first, they love it more than God, and a lot of bad behaviour follows. Compromise is never honoured by God, but it is very seductive. Material Success is the real God of many who would claim it isn't.. So your faith is only an inch deep.
I disagree with all those who want to 'butt out of politics' for any reason. You people are blessed with a chance to vote and influence your society in that way. Much of the world isn't. If you don't do it, thoughtfully and wisely, you are failing God and your country. [God likes good government, said Paul, a Roman citizen.]
Even 7% can make a huge difference on many public issues, and in getting more moral leaders. [Do only half of these vote, I wonder?]The Clinton Example was so bad, many overseas saw a corrupted society just turning a blind eye, divorcing morality from leadership quality.
I regard many posts on this as theologically ignorant, which says that somehow you have not been taught the responsibilities of being truly Christian properly in your Sunday Schools lately. I visited the US recently and most churches have huge SS facilities, unlike mine. A US relative said that it was hard to find serious Biblical teaching going on in many of them. The pewsitters wanted their 'ears tickled' instead, or go away to another. And so pragmatic 'money pastors' give them what they want, not what they NEED.
There is a huge difference between baby Christians and mature ones, and it's not an age thing. The first don't get much done.
posted on 10.17.2005 7:56 PM64
Barrie,
I agree it is an "unfortunate analogy". Also, yes we have a duty to participate as Christian citizens of our democratic republic. As to ignorance, there are two general categories: that from poor teaching and that from false teaching (which is much more insidious and corrupting). And it is especially disturbing to see whole denominations conform to the prevailing social winds. As Paul said in 2 Peter 2:17-20,
"These are springs without water and mists driven by a storm, for whom the black darkness has been reserved. For speaking out arrogant words of vanity they entice by fleshly desires, by sensuality, those who barely escape from the ones who live in error, promising them freedom while they themselves are slaves of corruption; for by what a man is overcome, by this he is enslaved. For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first."
posted on 10.17.2005 9:29 PM65
Why change our culture? Our culture needs diversity to function. People need choices. Without it, There would be no culture.
posted on 10.17.2005 11:09 PM66
Mike: Does our culture glorify God? Does it acknowledge and submit to the lordship of Christ?
What does the following mean: "For though we walk in the flesh, we are not waging war according to the flesh. For the weapons of our warfare are not of the flesh but have divine power to destroy strongholds. We destroy arguments and every lofty opinion raised against the knowledge of God, and take every thought captive to obey Christ" (2 Corinthians 10:3-5).
Eric: To address one point among many, it is incorrect to say Jesus did not have a Bible. His was what we call the Old Testament.
posted on 10.18.2005 9:22 AM67
It's all Luther's fault; he separated deeds from faith. There is no "requirement" to live well in the Protestant framework. Luther taught contrary to Christ's teaching.
posted on 10.18.2005 10:59 AM68
Sorry, Jaques. That dog won't hunt.
A counter-example from the Westminster Confession of Faith, Chapter XVI:
Of Good Works
I. Good works are only such as God has commanded in His holy Word,[1] and not such as, without the warrant thereof, are devised by men, out of blind zeal, or upon any pretence of good intention.[2]
II. These good works, done in obedience to God's commandments, are the fruits and evidences of a true and lively faith:[3] and by them believers manifest their thankfulness,[4] strengthen their assurance,[5] edify their brethren,[6] adorn the profession of the Gospel,[7] stop the mouths of the adversaries,[8] and glorify God,[9] whose workmanship they are, created in Christ Jesus thereunto,[10] that, having their fruit unto holiness, they may have the end, eternal life.[11]
III. Their ability to do good works is not at all of themselves, but wholly from the Spirit of Christ.[12] And that they may be enabled thereunto, beside the graces they have already received, there is required an actual influence of the same Holy Spirit, to work in them to will, and to do, of His good pleasure:[13] yet are they not hereupon to grow negligent, as if they were not bound to perform any duty unless upon a special motion of the Spirit; but they ought to be diligent in stirring up the grace of God that is in them.[14]
IV. They who, in their obedience, attain to the greatest height which is possibly in this life, are so far from being able to supererogate, and to do more than God requires, as that they fall short of much which in duty they are bound to do.[15]
V. We cannot by our best works merit pardon of sin, or eternal life at the hand of God, by reason of the great disproportion that is between them and the glory to come; and the infinite distance that is between us and God, whom, by them, we can neither profit, nor satisfy for the debt of our former sins,[16] but when we have done all we can, we have done but our duty, and are unprofitable servants:[17] and because, as they are good, they proceed from His Spirit,[18] and as they are wrought by us, they are defiled, and mixed with so much weakness and imperfection, that they cannot endure the severity of God's judgment.[19]
VI. Notwithstanding, the persons of believers being accepted through Christ, their good works also are accepted in Him;[20] not as though they were in this life wholly unblamable and unreproveable in God's sight;[21] but that He, looking upon them in His Son, is pleased to accept and reward that which is sincere, although accompanied with many weaknesses and imperfections.[22]
VII. Works done by unregenerate men, although for the matter of them they may be things which God commands; and of good use both to themselves and others:[23] yet, because they proceed not from an heart purified by faith;[24] nor are done in a right manner, according to the Word;[25] nor to a right end, the glory of God,[26] they are therefore sinful and cannot please God, or make a man meet to receive grace from God:[27] and yet, their neglect of them is more sinful and displeasing unto God.[28]
The numbers in brackets refer to the Scripture proof-texts, which I have not duplicated here.
posted on 10.18.2005 11:54 AM69
I like that Westminster Confession of Faith but let's break it down. Because of the Christian's connection with God through the Holy Spirit he or she is enabled to do more good, more consistantly, more throughly then someone attempting to do good without such a relationship with God.
I have been privleged to see this become a reality in many people's lives. In some places in the world it is much more universal to members of the "Church". In places where being a follower of this Jesus is something that may cause one to be deligated to dirty and low-paying jobs, arrest, torture and even death. It is there the Church is growing quickly, it is there the character of Christ seems to shine throughly in his followers. Funny thing is, History tells us that's how it's always been.
So what does that mean for us sitting in America with DSL and a mocha, facing no reprisals for writing such things? I'm not sure but I suspect it has something to do with it being all too easy to identify oneself as a Christian, even a "evangelical" christian.
Evangelical Christian to me means in the words of the apostle Peter "Someone always ready to give an answer for the hope that they have within them."
How far from that meaning of that word we have strayed.
Condemning those that do not subscribe to the judeo-christian wordveiw is not evangelical. The Apostle Paul puts it better: "Who am I to condemn those outside the Church, am I not to judge those inside the church."
Yes, It does say that in the Bible.
The true evangelical shares hope, shares a lifestyle that is contagously abundant and shares ideas of truth that make sense of this troubled life. Morality is part of that but it is something we are to lecture each other in the church about, not those who clearly say they are outside.
If you want a better explanation of this concept, ask the Chinese Christians in their basement.
70
Why change our culture? Our culture needs diversity to function. People need choices. Without it, There would be no culture.
You need to balance the unity of a "core culture" (Christian-influenced in the classic West) with the diversity and variety of a "multiculture".
Core culture without multi-culture (Unity without Diversity) gives you the New Soviet Man, Saudi Arabia (and its Wahabi extensions), and Fifties conformity a la Pleasantville.
Multiculture without a core culture (Diversity without Unity) gives you tribalism, Balkanization, what used to be called Yugoslavia, and Rwanda.
posted on 10.21.2005 5:59 PM71
Reminder of Godwin's Law for the professional Big Name Netizens out there:
NAZI refers to a member of the National Socialist German Workers' Party (NSDAP) or similar adherent of German-style Fascism.
NOT "anyone who doesn't agree 1000% with All The Great Ideas coming outa My Pie Hole".
FASCISM itself means a type of industrial autocracy (usually involving a charismatic strongman and invented racial/national supremacist mythology) which was very trendy some 70 years ago.
NOT "anyone who says I can't do Whatever I Wanna".