1

I like reading Steven King novels and watching movies about aliens, but I don't believe any of it is true.

No one (except maybe John the baptist) noticed Jesus when he first appeared, even though there was a lot of prophecy about his coming. What makes us think we'll be any better the second time around?

2

I wrote the following on Amazon.com a while back on the first book. The first book was so badly written I can't imagine somebody would buy a sequel to this stuff.

Don't read it for its intended purpose,...But rather consider this book as an exposition, albeit unintentional, of the fundamentalist mindset, at least that of Tim La Haye (and radical theocratic organizations such as CWFA, Focus on the Family, the Christian Coalition).

This book has embedded within the "apologetic" arguments of the gangster-god: Irene claims that one shouldn't joke about the "rapture" because one just "doesn't know" what will happen.

The rapture, by the way, is an invention of the last 150 years- orthodox Christianity has never considered a literal "rapture" since Revelation was included in the sriptural canon. Revelation was included in the canon with the understanding of the ecumenical council that it was metaphorical- and did not presage a "tribulation," or other such hoo-hah. Tim La Haye won't tell you that, because it would hurt him too much in the wallet.

I for one think the gangster god who makes us an offer you can't refuse- a.k.a. the Orwellian named so-called "good news" is bunk. So, theology aside - what this book is useful for is as an insight into the mind of the followers of this "gangster-god."

And you get plenty of fascinating information. You get, for example, religious bigotry: Only the "real" Christians (in the manner that Tim La Haye would approve- that is, his projection of "good" Christians) are "good" people. And you get the propagation of the myth related to euphoria inducing substances: Rayford Steele is made to feel guilty over the fact that he drinks "hard" liquor occaisonally, though not to excess, and so he hides the offending demon rum away from his young son. And, you get Evangelical equivocation: for some reason all the kids get raptured. Even the Kip Kinkels, one would imagine. John Calvin would rise out of his grave if he heard of this, and then we'd just have to re-bury him. Finally, you get wacky science and geopolitics: the Israelis invent a "miracle fertilizer" (despite the fact that it's been known for a while that Israel's "miracle in the desert" is coming to an end because of over use of the land), and, for no particularly goood reason (since the Russians have part of the famed Black Earth zone)the Russians go to war with Israel to get this "fertilizer."

I bet.

Finally, I have to comment on the psychology behind this type of offal. Clearly the authors use God, and his "judgement" as a stand-in to execute their own resentments, vicariously, on the "media," nonChristians, and anyone else who doesn't think exactly like them.

Some "good news."

3

All the good comments are in the thread below this one!

Just to kick it off though, the Left Behind is the posterchild for Christian mediocrity in art. Christians used to be on the forefront of artistic excellence, and now we are reduced to the empty calories of the LB Series and various other Christian trinketry. Christian art has devolved to gimmicky baubles and Kinkade pictures (THE WINDOWS GLOW WHEN YOU TURN THE LIGHTS DOWN! PRAISE THE LORD! LOOK HIS WIFE'S INITIALS ARE IN EVERY PAINTING!)

We need another C.S. Lewis, J.R.R. Tolkein, or Flannery O'Conner to come rock the world with real literature, not lazy Christian drek.

Other than that, I don't really have an opinion. ;)

4

Phil A -- I wonder if you might possibly represent the first evangelical here who has seen Dreyer's or Bresson's films???

5

I think it's fairly obvious what the books represent: a full-scale assault on good taste and the English language.

Prediction: in 10 years, the film version will be a cult classic of camp. There'll be drag queen shows devoted to it, theme parties, midnite screenings at the Angelika.....

6

Christians used to be on the forefront of artistic excellence

Catholics were. Protestantism has rarely given anything to the world other than a whole lotta ugly. Excepting shaker furniture.

7

Gosh, I actually agree with mummon (well, at least partially, as some of what he says is plain anti-evangelical bigotry). I agree with mummon's assessment of the first book (the only one I've read)--simply not well written at all. And the movies made based on them are even worse. Shallow characterization, plot holes, unrealistic dialogue,yadda yadda.

But really, I don't think most Evangelicals buy into dispensationalism. I don't know many who do (but I will admit that I'm a blue-county Evangelical, so I could be wrong). While Lahaye might believe it, one cannot jump to the conclusion that just because many Evangelicals read this that they necessarily buy into the theology behind it.

But let's also be clear about modern literature in general - mummon seems to be irritated that the novels reveal Lahaye's biases, desires and projections. This is not a trend limited to Evangelical fiction. Novels are the creation of their authors, and usually contain all the prejudices, foibles and eccentricities of their authors as well. That is no less true of other novels on the market. Mummon complains because he doesn't agree with the author's prejudices, not because the existence of such prejudices in works of art is a bad thing. If he thinks it is a bad thing, maybe he shouldn't read novels (or listen to songs or see movies, ets.).

8

Vermeer was born Dutch reformed (although he did convert to Catholicism later). And Rembrandt was Protestant as well. I guess they aren't good artists?

9

I confess. I read the first few of the Left Behind novels. At first the idea was interesting, then it became tedious as it was obvious the authors were trying to stretch the story across as many books as they possibly could. Rather than being a quality work of fiction it became a "marketing phenomenon" giving birth to other series of books, movies, and all kinds of other merchandise. In the end, it cheapens the original product's value. We've seen the same thing happen with books such as "The Prayer of Jabez" and "The Purpose Driven Life".

Phil A. is right. We need quality work like C. S. Lewis and J. R. R. Tolkein in order to make an impact.

Whether you like Mel Gibson or not, you have to admire the craftmanship that went into "The Passion of the Christ". But like so many other "Christian" products, it was marketed to death. At least it was a quality piece of work. That's what will allow us to make an impact.

10

Larry,
I've told you before I've seen several Bresson films, although it was a long time ago. The were very good. I don't remember Dreyer, if I've seen any they didn't stick with me like Mouchette did.

jpe,
J.S. Bach wrote some worthwhile music, seems to me he was Lutheran. One could point to Rutter's music today. Seems to me in general there is a lot of artistic effort out there in the secular (and sacred) world without very much artistic excellence as well.

11

I wonder if you might possibly represent the first evangelical here who has seen Dreyer's or Bresson's films???

Those names aren't familiar to me, I don't know who they are.

What are their films about?

(I saw - and loved - Saved. Does that count?)

12

Really, I think that you're partially right - higher quality art will probably tend to lend itself to making a broader impact by not raising the kinds of questions that have been raised here. However, I think we need to look at the word "impact" a bit closer. It seems like everyone is saying "it has to be good to make an impact" - I strongly disagree with that. These books sold 60 MILLION copies. It's hard to argue that they didn't make some kind of impact on someone.

13

For anyone seeking an alternative to the Left Behind foolishness:

Nathan Wilson, a funny fellow and fine writer has published, in collaboration with Mr. Sock, "Right Behind: A Parody of Last Days Goofiness" and "Supergeddon: A Really Big Geddon". These are both short parodies of the LeHaye/Jenkins books and are both funny and informative.

They are both available from Canon Press.

On a more serious note there is a Preterist's Apocalypse (ca AD70) available from Tyndale of all people. The first installment of which can be found on amazon.

I've read the Wilson books, and recommend them highly. I've heard the other series is good as far as formulaic apocalyptic fiction goes which should put it miles ahead of that other series.

Take care,
Frosty

14

I have never read any of them because I stopped believing that the pre-trib/pre-millenial view was biblical about 13 years ago. I decided to reformat my brain on the issue (since Hal Lindsey's predictions which were so sure never came true) and just started from Genesis. After reading through twice, consulting many books on the various views I became an A-millenial/partial Preterist. It is a much simpler interpretation of the scripture, not so much twisting going on to make anything fit. These books represent that view as Hal Lindsey did in the late 70's. It was wrong then and is wrong now. Hannegraf has a book out now to combat the view, too bad he's in trouble as it will hurt sales and credibility.

15

ern :

I quoted my review almost entirely verbatim; the problems with folks like La Haye is the very real idolatry present in those books: he is presenting his ideas as what is Christian, which is another way of saying La Haye is being dishonest.

Remember: LaHaye's ideas in no way represent a traditional understanding of Christianity.

16

Daddypundit:

Hey, I agree: give me C.S. Lewis over La Haye.

17

re: the ugliness of protestantism: I forgot to mention that any and all exceptions prove the rule.

That is all.

18

Moving from literature to music, if anybody wants to check out Christian music at the highest artistic level, check out Bill Mallonee, formerly of the Vigilantes of Love. Very good lyricist, and a Christian songwriter who actually writes with nuance and inference. Whodathunk?

19

No no no ern, let's be serious. The God of the Left Behind series seems to be less like the real God and more like a one-dimensional version of Lahaye himself.

sure a novel will have some of the author's biases in it but a good novel should convince me the characters are who the book says they are. If God is going to be a character I'm within my rights to demand something like God.

The series is seriously in need of a Mark Twain type to do for it what Twain did for JAmes Fenimore Cooper.

20

Shortly after I became a Christian (my family is not) my brother and I went to a holiday gathering with some Christian friends of mine where they watched the Left Behind movie. I was appalled -- and embarassed. The whole scenario is rather hard to believe, and I think quite inconsistent with the teaching of the Scripture. I was especially embarassed because of my brother -- I'd like him to think being a Christian is not the same as being a kook.
I'm not saying everyone who believes that stuff is a kook -- but that it sure can come across as nutty. I'd much rather have a Lewis or Tolkien, where things actually make sense...
Plus, the movie wasn't well done.

21

These books represent that view as Hal Lindsey did in the late 70's. It was wrong then and is wrong now.

But it certainly scared me at the time. I discovered Lindsey when I was about 12 or 13 years old, in an English language book shop in France. It was my first extended trip without my parents. Coincidentally, I was unable to get through to my parents on the telephone for a few days, and I just about convinced myself that the rapture had come and I was left behind. Granted, I was surrounded by Frenchmen who were still visible, but I didn't really expect them to be raptured...

I also recall being both repulsed and fascinated by some grotesque "Christian" comic books that I'd have to characterize as "apocalyptic porn" for the way that the various horrors of the tribulation were portrayed in lurid detail. Ick.

O.K., so I was a gullible child, but I wonder if LaHaye has a similar effect on kids today.

22

LB isn't worth my time or neural exercise. I've only heard bad things about the writing, the series seems to have no end (much like the Wheel of Time series), and the theology is laughable.

Can 60 million people really be so wrong? Yes. Witness Titanic.

23

As a persecuted minority in the Christian blogsphere (a dispensationalist), I have to object and say that LaHaye's books are ... terrible. Ok, I don't really know since I couldn't get throught more than a few pages. My wife really tried but gave up after a few chapters. I get more out of pagan SciFi anyway. BTW just cause some guys are a little, shall we say overzealous, like Hal Lindsey, doesn't mean Darby or Scofield were; or me. :)

24

The first thing Left Behind needs is an editor. There is a good novel somewhere in that set of ten volumes, but it is hard to find among all the excess.

25

Most of the people commenting here don't seem much like any of the evangelicals that I know. The ones I know believe the Bible is literarly true, including Revelation. The Left Behind books are NOT particularly well written and are definately fiction but they are based on what Revelation predicts will happen. ie. an Anti-Christ and a 7 year period of tribulations ending with Christ's return. Do none of you believe that?

While the opponents of Dispensationalism will point out that as a system of theology it is relatively new, it is notable that there is evidence from the early church writers that there was clearly an understanding that God dealt with His people differently in progressive dispensations, and that Israel wasn't seen as replaced by the Church. A small reference to some of these writings is found in 'The Moody Handbook of Theology" by Paul Ennis. He mentions the following Christians as being in the history of the development of Dispensationalism.

Justin Martyr (A.D. 110-165)
Iranaeus (A.D. 130-200)
Clement of Alexandria (A.D. 150-220)
Augustine (A.D. 354-430)

Of the above Ryrie says "It is not suggested nor should it be inferred that these early Church Fathers were dispensationalists in the modern sense of the word. But it is true that some of them enunciated principles which later developed into Dispensationalism, and it may be rightly said that they held primitive or early dispensational concepts."

26

Most of the people commenting here don't seem much like any of the evangelicals that I know. The ones I know believe the Bible is literarly true, including Revelation. The Left Behind books are NOT particularly well written and are definately fiction but they are based on what Revelation predicts will happen. ie. an Anti-Christ and a 7 year period of tribulations ending with Christ's return. Do none of you believe that?

I'll agree with you that premillenial views seem to be most common among evangelicals (at least those that I have met), but there is certainly diversity. I've met evangelicals who held postmillenial viewpoints. I guess I tend towards an amillenial viewpoint and am strongly drawn to the view that much of Revelation describes the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70. However, eschatology isn't really emphasized in my denomination.

I found an interesting essay that describes various theological influences on evangelicals and mentions some of the diversity in eschatalogical viewpoints. I have no idea who the author is, but it seems a fairly nice summary.

http://bbs.bapho.net/bbs/h-drive/christ3/doc51.txt

27

As I read the comments above about the lengthiness of the series, like Funky Dung I too was thinking of the Wheel of Time series. I have not read any of the Left Behind books and have no intention of so doing. I was asked by someone in my church if I had read them and I said no because they teach something I don't believe.

I read Lindsey's books when they first came out. Funny, 1988 came and went but the Lord didn't. I always had trouble finding Scriptural evidence for a two-tiered second coming: secret rapture - tribulation - final coming. Also, it seemed like it was nothing more than our western propensity to avoid suffering. A pre-trib rapture means we don't have to go through the horrors.

I do believe in the second coming and that there may well be political and social events that help us know that the tribulation has begun or is about to. George Eldon Ladd penned a book called The Blessed Hope. I haven't read it in a while but it was something I could accept and I usually tell people that if they want to know what I believe about the end times, read that book.

Are we close? Who knows? Only the Father as far as I can tell in Scripture. Does it appear that we are heading down the path where the world has no tolerance for Christianity? Sure, but it has probably looked that way to other Christians throughout the centuries. I guess we'll just have to wait and see.

28

The article about Left Behind on The Knight Shift blog that started all this is one of the funniest things I've ever read. Love his explanation for what _really_ happened in the Rapture!

29

Nick-thanks for the URL to the essay that describes various theological influences on evangelicals and mentions some of the diversity in eschatalogical viewpoints. It was useful in trying to understand all this stuff.

30

This sort of thing has a bad history of running down the "My eschatology is better than yours" bit. That aside, the Left Behind books got a little too long. The characterization should've gathered steam ala Wheel of Time (although I gotta say, everything past Fire from Heaven was weak) the series instead ran flat. The last book is currently sitting on my shelf with no desire to read it because how bad the writing had gotten.

Some plusses on the books though, the gospel was preached—often. I'm not talking fluff and stuff (though some may disagree) but the honest Gospel presented. I've also seen plenty of non-Christian non-believers reading the book and although some may say that it add to the fictionalizing of the Gospel, I think it actually is another planted seed.

So there you have it. One thumb up for the Gospel presentation but one thumb down for extended writing and little character development.

31

Phil A -- regarding Robert Bresson, here's some nice descriptions of one of my favorites:

...His film Balthazar (unfortunately, still not available on DVD in USA) can easily qualify as the greatest film ever made. It is told from the point of view of a donkey, whose life turns into a continuous strain of suffering as a result of not only cruel acts of the bad people, but just as much as a result of the ordinary, selfish acts of the good people. In its unsurpassed simplicity, this film stands all the more effectively as a shattering indictment agaist humanity: women as well as men, the old as well as the young, the good as well as the bad. It makes it devastatingly clear that there is some kind of a fundamental wrong resting within every human being, which makes him cause suffering to others and to himself as a matter of course. We shudder, when we see the donkey Balthazar being abused by the bad people. Yet it is the basically good people, who set the donkey's life-cycle of misery into motion: the farmer and his daughter. When she no longer finds time to care for Balthazar, her father declares that they might as well get rid of him, adding in irritation: "That donkey makes us look ridiculous!" All the suffering that later manifests in the lives of these two people can be traced to this single act of thoughtless selfishness. But they never recognize this, and thus fail to learn and benefit from their own suffering. The donkey is a silent witness to it all with a silent question: is it not man, who makes himself look ridiculous? Is it not human beings, who now appear ridiculous in the eyes of the entire Creation looking on, because they have failed to acquire the True Knowledge about the cause-and-effect of their own behavior and to adapt themselves accordingly to the workings of Creation?

Other films, Diary of a Country Priest, A Man Escaped, and Mouchette, explore similar themes.

As to Dreyer, here is an exerpt from a great review of his film "Ordet"

[url]http://www.thefilmforum.addr.com/2003/ordet.html[/url]

It is very hard to be objective about Ordet. Dreyer's masterpiece has the potential to be so subjectively powerful that you can literally build your own worship experience around it. Made nearly 50 years ago and set in the mid-twenties, it is still very transcendent and capable of packing an insightful wallop if one remains open to its dynamic spiritual overtones.

I recently sat for the second time and gleaned from this powerful tale of a Danish family's trials and joys on the farm that sustains them, "Borgen's Farm." It is rich with life, lessons, and several morals that the director will offer as "truth filtered through an artist's mind." To this reviewer the experience felt like an interaction with the spirit world — the film being a tool that helps to channel our thoughts in a proper way to better see the beauty of a God whose ways we do not fully comprehend.

But this is not a contrived, Billy-Graham-published salvation experience production. It is first and foremost a great story, a classic that works on several levels. At the core of its heart are themes of love, loss, confusion, doubt, anger, reconciliation, and ultimately, redemption. You may have seen these qualities portrayed in film before, but you've not seen them portrayed like this. Dreyer's approach is to introduce us to characters so fully developed that we completely identify with each of them and what their differing views represent. He then throws us into a situation where we feel there can only be one outcome, and whether or not we agree with the conclusion, we exit having been forever challenged and potentially changed.

32

Debating whether or not pre, mid, or post trib is the correct view of end times prophecy is not really that relevant. It changes nothing dealing with the atoning and substitutionary death, burial, and resurrection of Christ for one's sins.

If one wants to build a trib/bomb shelter and stay for Anti-christ rule, go ahead. But I rather believe the pre-trib position is better supported by Scripture. As for the LB works of fiction, never read 'em. And it's based on one man's view of Scripture anyway, not a Nicene conference of evangelicals. :-)

33

Sounds like some good stuff, especially Balthazar.

I had a similar spiritual experience watching Alien Vs. Predator. The way Paul W.S. Anderson explored the time-tested themes of being trapped in an ancient temple and of being attacked by stuff from another planet was masterful. We see a microcosm where humanity is forced to make a choice: Do I help the warrior-alien race that uses me as bait or do I let them die while I try to escape? This tension has been explored by every author from Plato to Melville to Rand. This is the kind of film that could change your life if you have the courage to accept it's lessons.

In all seriousness though, I will definitely check out Bresson and Dreyer. I've finally gotten some exposure to Kurosawa ("Cure") and I was very impressed. I'm always looking for impressive films.

34

I got about halfway through the last book and got so bored that I quit. But the series was bad, but not that bad. Hal Lindsey is still at it: http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=42578 I confess I am a premilenial dipensationaist, but I am pretty ignorant of other views.

35

OH BOY! Left Behind books are plainly and openly FICTION. If you don't like it OH WELL! It is just a fictional account of Revelations. If all of you HEAVENLY MINDED (not much earthly Good) Goody two shoes are offended, so what. It is one way Revelations COULD unfold. If you want to deny Revelations, fine, it is your problem. All of this snobby, elitest, sniffing. is just plain silly.

36

Amen.

37

Linda -

My complaint with the LB Series isn't that it is fiction. My complaint is that it's mediocre fiction being given an honored seat at the table of Christian Culture.

38

I received the series as gifts whenever the next book would come out and read it for the sake of the gift. The writing stinks, the characters are two-dimensional, the eschatology is undefended, there are remarks that this is the only view that accepts the Bible at its word... did I mention that the writing is stale?

With each book, I began to hope that it was finally over, and each time, there was another one coming. It's like a wheel that takes a lot of time! You go through a few revolutions waiting for it to stop, then it starts spinning all over again!

I hope and pray that I'm not given the prequil for my birthday.

39

Ha! Phil, my head almost exploded with contempt midway through your Alien vs. Predator "analysis." You got me, bro'.

At the moment, Balthazar is available only as R2 PAL DVD (Nouveux) with subtitles but it is a fantastic transfer. I think Criterion will be putting sometime next year if not earlier.

40

Sonspot said:

No one (except maybe John the baptist) noticed Jesus when he first appeared, even though there was a lot of prophecy about his coming. What makes us think we'll be any better the second time around?

I am not sure if you were being rhetorical or really wanted an answer, but here it is in any regard. Jesus came the first time in a manner which fit the prophecy and He will come again as prophesied the second time.

Rev. 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

The Lord Himself said, "So if anyone tells you, ‘There he is, out in the desert,’ do not go out; or, ‘Here he is, in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it. For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man." (See Matt 24)

In other words, it is going to be obvious.

41

Phil said,

"My complaint is that it's mediocre fiction..."

I agree with you. The writing is flat and simplistic. I read the first several books, then grew tired of it. Mediocre is the right word. However, sometimes God blesses even mediocrity or worse. They may be fine for some people, but they were was not for me.

42

Phil
If you don't like the writing , FINE. Your idea of "mediocre fiction" doesn't agree with mine. I happen to find Stephen King, disgusting and sometimes demonic. That does't mean he is, that is just my picture of him. I find him boring and wordy. So What? Millions do not. Remember there are millions and millions who believe Revelations. So what is wrong with painting a dismal picture of those who are not Christians and do not make the Rapture? For the life of me I can't understand this arguement. LB is not billed as prophecy, just a fictional account of what could happen.

43

Larry and Phil.
Left Behind was pulp fiction, plain and simple for me and most of the Christians I know who do lots of reading. If you want to see a comparative secular set of novels, read the old western serials. LB was entertaining in the way Clive Cussler's novels are without the cheesy sex scenes, foul language, and other action novel fluff.
The story as a series was actually annoying to me at times but overall it was clean entertainment that anyone but mumon could read without being offended.
I found the overall quality of the writing to be average at its best. Yet, I still read all of the novels because I found them to be a simple distraction from the lunacy that goes on in day-to-day life.
LB was more like the Lone Ranger serials of many years ago. Even then as a punk kid, I hardly believed that Tonto and the Lone Ranger were a realistic representation of the 'Wild West'. Instead, I enjoyed the distraction it provided. I even remember thinking, "How can anybody be so stupid to not recognize the Lone Ranger without his mask on!"
Think about it for a minute, Superman? Batman? (30 something men in tights with masks.)
LB appeals to those who want to read about the endtimes but who don't want to have to think too deeply about it.
As far as the commercial success of the merchandising surrounding LB, I can positively say that I would rather my money went to someone who believes in Jesus than to someone like Madonna or Bob Woodward.
I mentioned it last night, and the comments of this evenings post continue to support my belief that most of the responses I read on this blog are written by primadonnas trying to prove something to somebody... Who I am not sure.
Lighten up dudes

44

read this: “The Rapture is a biblical and orthodox belief.”

LaHaye declares, in Rapture Under Attack, that “virtually all Christians who take the Bible literally expect to be raptured before the Lord comes in power to this earth.” This would have been news to Christians—both Catholic and Protestant—living prior to the 18th century, since the concept of a pretribulation Rapture was unheard of prior to that time. Vague notions had been considered by the Puritan preachers Increase (1639-1723) and Cotton Mather (1663-1728), and the late 18th-century Baptist minister Morgan Edwards, but it was John Nelson Darby who solidified the belief in the 1830s and placed it into a larger theological framework.

This historical background leaves the dispensationalist with two options: claim the pretribulation Rapture is biblical but went undiscovered for 1,800 years, or argue that it has been the belief of “true Christians” ever since Christ walked the earth. Ryrie, in his apologetic Dispensationalism Today (Moody, 1965), makes a case for the former by stating: “The fact that the church taught something in the first century does not make it true, and likewise if the church did not teach something until the twentieth century, it is not necessarily false.” LaHaye and others argue for the latter, pointing to passages such as 1 Thessalonians 4:15-18, 1 Corinthians 15:51-53, and Matthew 24 as clear evidence for the pretribulation Rapture (those passages make several appearances, for instance, in the Left Behind novels).

1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 is especially vital to the dispensationalist:

For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the archangel’s call, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first; then we who are alive, who are left, shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and so we shall always be with the Lord.

There are three problems with claiming this passage refers to the Rapture. First, neither it nor the entire book of 1 Thessalonians mentions Christ returning two more times, or makes any reference to such a distinction. Second, dispensationalists believe the Rapture will be a secret and silent event, yet this passage describes a very loud and public event. This is all the more problematic because dispensationalists insist that they interpret Scripture “plainly” and “literally,” allowing for symbolism only when such is the obvious intent of the author. Finally, dispensationalists teach that all other New Testament references to Christ coming in the clouds (Matthew 24:30 and 26:64; Mark 14:62; Revelation 1:7) refer to His Second Coming but inexplicably deny that that is the case here.

1 Corinthians 15 and its reference to “the twinkling of an eye” is often used as a proof text but is equally unconvincing. The point of the passage is that Christians will be glorified at the Second Coming, not that they’ll be secretly whisked off the planet prior to the tribulation. It describes an event that will occur at “the last trumpet” and states that “the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed” (1 Corinthians 15:52).

Yet LaHaye and Left Behind coauthor Jerry B. Jenkins, reflecting the common dispensationalist interpretation, claim in Are We Living in the End Times? (Tyndale, 1999) that Matthew 24:29-31 describes the Second Coming, which will include “a great sound of a trumpet” (Matthew 24:31). So how can 1 Corinthians 15, which speaks of “the last trumpet,” refer to the Rapture when there is yet another trumpet to be sounded, several years later, at the Second Coming?

Some dispensationalists have admitted, at least in a backhanded fashion, the recent roots of the pretribulation Rapture. In an article titled “The Origin of the Pre-Trib Rapture” (Biblical Perspectives, March/April 1989), LaHaye’s colleague at the Pre-Trib Research Institute, Thomas D. Ice, writes that “a certain theological climate needed to be created before premillennialism would restore the Biblical doctrine of the pre-trib Rapture.” He continues: “Sufficient development did not take place until after the French Revolution. The factor of the Rapture has been clearly known by the church all along; therefore the issue is the timing of the event. Since neither pre- nor post-tribs have a proof text for the time of the Rapture...then it is clear that this issue is the product of a deduction from one’s overall system of theology, both for pre- and post-tribbers.” In fact, the Rapture as dispensationalists conceive of it was never part of the early or medieval Church’s theology but is the modern creation of Darby less than 200 years ago.

http://www.crisismagazine.com/november2003/olson.htm

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Related article at;
http://www.bryansnonsense.blogspot.com
Title: God is not a Quiter

46

I'm with Mr. Fine--the books were poorly written, and about 10 volumes too long, and the film was many times worse. Plus, I'm amellenial. But I read (skimmed) the whole set; even bought a couple off the sale racks. Shucks, I've read comic books, bad spy novels, and worse. But at least here was a junk novel where Christians are the good guys. You won't catch me defending LB as anything approaching good literature, but I think evangelicals who made it a best-seller were like those guys on "survivor" after they had been on the island a while and finally caught a scrawny fish. After a steady diet of mainstream anti-Christian bias, even a poorly done positive portrayal of faith is a welcome change. Imagine what could happen if we ever produced anything GOOD?

47

"I am not sure if you were being rhetorical or really wanted an answer..."

Jeff,
I'm just saying that a lot of people thought they knew how the Messiah would present 2,000 years ago(earthly king) and they were all wrong (even John the Bap. questioned). They had the prophecies, the scribes, the priests and they still got it flat wrong.

What makes us think we are, any of us, interpreting the prophecies right this time?

Whatever it will be, it will be wonderful. I think we may all just be in for a big surprise, like they we're the first time.

48

Larry's comments bring up another are of Christian media: Music
Until about ten years ago, the music produced by the Christian community was prozac for the saved. The whole hosanna thing freaked me out as a musician.
Then as the industry matured, the quality improved to the point where now the Christian bands are able to provide music that usually better in quality to the trash on MTV.
I think LB is the hosanna music for Christian fiction. Its success is providing a way for Christian authors to provide fiction to people that do not want trashy sex scenes and foul language.
The agents for the LB machine, Alive Communications is actively using the resources and connections it has to bring other authors to market. This would not have happened had LB not been the huge commercial success it is.

49

I liked it ok. Hopefully it'll clear room for better books, and it was a decent page-turner/beach book.

50

Protestantism has rarely given anything to the world other than a whole lotta ugly. Excepting shaker furniture.

More about Left Behind in a moment. But let me address jpe's, er, let's just say: misrepresentation. (this is the written version of biting my tongue)

What do you mean by "art" You mean music? Then what about Bach, Handel (of whom the Catholic Beethoven once said "Handel was the greatest composer that ever lived. I would uncover my head, and kneel before his tomb."), Mendelssohn , Brahms, Pachalbel, just to name a few? And that's not to leave out the great hymn writers Wesley, Watts, Toplady, Newton, Luther, etc, etc.

Or do you mean literature? Then what about Milton, Spencer, Swift, DeFoe, Scott, and Shakespeare (and, I suppose, by proxy Bacon, Marlowe and de Vere but I can't vouch for them)?

Or do you just mean "art" in the traditional sense? If so, then, I don't know, I guess after Rembrandt and the Dutch School I guess there's not much to speak of.

51

Hey Mr.Ed,
I like the references. All have stood the test of time and shallow cultural interests.
If someone is under 30, most will unfortunately be unknown to them.
Provide some references from today such as:
Music- P.O.D., Chris Tomlin, Toby Mac, etc...
As far as visual arts, I am an ignorant country bumpkin who prefers the masters of the rennaisance. But I'm sure there are artists today whom do work worthy of an N.E.A. grant....
Maybe some of the others have insight into this area.

52

For a great action novel written from a christian perspective, look into Oliver North's fiction books.
I kid you not, they make a great read and there are continual, clear references to Christ in a POSITIVE way throughout the 2 novels I read.
They are written along the lines of Clancy or perhaps Ludlum without the foul language or smarmy sex scenes.
I think anyone who enjoys a good, manly, action novel will find his books a pleasant surprise.
I did.

53

The mockery of unbelievers like mumon doesn't bother me. But if I have to defend my brother's work, I would prefer that his masterpiece be defendable.

Mel Gibson's "Passion", for example, is imminently defendable. The Left Behind series is not.

More at http://www.edlongshanks.com/archives/2005/02/being_a_sensati.html

54

sonspot,

I agree with you 100%.
I have been intrigued by the two witnesses of Revelation 11 for years. The way they were portrayed in the LB book reminded me more of Dirty Harry, "Make my day," than witnesses of my Lord Jesus Christ. Compare Rev. 11:5, "... fire proceeds from their mouth and devours their enemies," with Jeremiah 1:9-10, "Behold, I have put My words in your mouth. See, I have this day set you over the nations and over the kingdoms, to root out and pull down, to destroy and to throw down, to build and to plant." See also further at Jeremiah 5:12-14, "They have lied about the LORD, and said, `It is not He. Neither will evil come upon us, Nor shall we see sword or famine. And the prophets become wind, for the word is not in them. Thus shall it be done to them.' Therefore, thus says the LORD God of hosts: `Because you speak this word, Behold, I will make My words in your mouth fire, and this people wood, and it shall devour them.'"
The LB depiction of the two witnesses of Revelation 11 seems CARNAL. If the whole series is this bad I don't see how it can be beneficial to the Body of Christ. 2 Corinthians 10:3-5

55

Now, there are several things that really bug me about much of "Christian consumerism" today, but about the Left Behind series especially.

1) They can't seem to decide if they want a work of fiction or an evangelizing tool. Now, those things aren't necessarily mutually exclusive. In fact, its been done quite a bit in the past: allegorically. But Left Behind takes it a bit too far in that they take highly symbolic events out of the Bible and speculate about the meaning. But the problem is that its not presented as speculation, its presented as sort of a future historical fiction. The problem for me is twofold: first, I personally can't appreciate it because I'm not a dispensationalist. In fact, I've been given two copies of the series and haven't cracked the cover. Second, when I talk to people who have read Left Behind I don't know where to begin. On one hand, I'm happy that the book spures an interest in Christianity but on the other, my explanation will only serve to confuse the issue since my perspective differs from Left Behind, and giving people the impression that Christianity is all subjective. Now, there are areas that Christians disagree, of course, but to the world we Protestants should at least present a sort of united front with regard to the core doctrines. But Left Behind takes a fringe issue and builds its presentation of Christianity around it.

2) The series has clearly gone beyond an evangelizing tool and has turned into a million dollar enterprise for the authors. The problem with this? Well, it has to keep going. I mean, we can't just leave it at Glorious Appearing--or whatever the latest is. They have to keep making up stuff to keep the enterprise running. Further, pastors and teachers who should know better are latching onto this enterprise--telling people to have their own "left behind" videos telling unbelievers what to do after the rapture. Meanwhile, the pagans are sitting back saying "See, more white suit-clad, Rolls Royce driving 'Christians' peddling their wares. Whaty a joke!" And isn't it?

56

It really doesn't matter whether you believe it or not. Revelations clearly talks about a period of tribulation. We seem to be back to the fluffy duffy stuff again. God is love and tra la la. Remember he judged Israel very harshly several times. Some times he delivered them sometimes he just brought them through. It does not matter a whit whether you believe or not, it will happen. The "Church" is busy prettying up the Gospel. "Don't mention the blood in turns people off" "Don't mention Judgement that is so harsh" God is righteous and he must judge us if we are not covered by the blood of Christ's sacrifice. Argue the details all you want, it just distracts from the importantance of the atonement, and personal acceptance of that atonement. I am reading in Exodus right now and God dealt very harshly with Pharoh and the Egyptians. I can not imagine why we think that our world will escape that Judgement. Paul speaks very plainly about the "rapture: two shall be working side by side one will be taken the other left, and so on. That is not the second comming. We will be caught up and be with the Saints that have gone on before. Then at a time of his chosing he will return with a shout and loud voice and all will see him and know he is God. I guess you can try to make that something else or not believe it, but is seems clear to me. With all the examples in the Bible of Gods judgement I can't understand those who try to deny the righteousness of God that must be maintained. It is easy to ignore that Judgement (consquences of sin) and get caught up argueing and split hairs and words, but again you are just ignore the fact that there will be a Judgement and those who have not personally accepted Christ's atonement (by the shedding of his blood) his death and resurection will be judged. I see people here all the time sneering and the "Hellfire and Brimstone" preachers. Just remember God would not be God if he did not Judge sin and Judge it very harshly. I for one am not the least bit interested in seeing that side of God directed at me. So while it is intelectually interesting to discuss all of this esoteric stuff, it isn't a "deal breaker" for me. I do my best to stick to the basics. Those being: the Virgin Birth, Jesus Death on the cross and the Resurected Christ living in me and try to work through me. Get those right and I listen to your other arguements, until you try to tell me something that I just read is not there then you loose me again.

57

I'll be the first to admit that I read more than my share of "pulpy" novels. Dean Koontz, Michael Slade, Robert Ludlum, Graham Masterson, etc etc...

However, none of these pretend they are anything more than a mindlessly entertaining read. Left Behind and its authors actually take themselves seriously and many in the Christian community hold the LB series up as some sort of acheivement in the literary world. If you like explicitly Christian political thrillers, hey, LB will probably hit the spot. No shame in that. It's when people start acting like the Left Behind series belongs on the same shelf as Narnia or Lord of the Rings that I cry foul.

I love Robert Ludlum and I love Ayn Rand, but I respect the vast difference in what they are.

58

Mr. Fine:

As far as visual arts... consider Thomas Kincaid, the greatest popular artist since Norman Rockwell. Kincaid will be poo-pooed by the Left for actually creating traditional beauty - but modern art has a political deconstructionist bent. Leftist art is a parody of itself. Unfortunately, much of today's artistic culture is dominated by this destructive philosophy. Kincaid's use of color and light is awesome.

59

Make that Thomas Kinkade - internet thumbnails do not do his work justice. You must see it in person to get the impact.

60

If you don't like the writing , FINE. Your idea of "mediocre fiction" doesn't agree with mine.

It's not that this person or that person doesn't like the writing; it's that the writing is bad. Objectively bad. What are you, some kind of relativist?

61

As far as visual arts... consider Thomas Kincaid, the greatest popular artist since Norman Rockwell. Kincaid will be poo-pooed by the Left....

....or by people with eyes.

62

"After a steady diet of mainstream anti-Christian bias, even a poorly done positive portrayal of faith is a welcome change. Imagine what could happen if we ever produced anything GOOD?"

I for one found both the Christian's in the LB books and the books themselves arrogant and unpleasent. The Jesus who appears in the last LB books is more mechanical than either human or divine ("Toss another thousand into hell forever while I give the reader some puppy dog eyes to make him think this hurts me more than it hurts them!").

In short I do not think the LB series represents a positive portrayal of faith but rather self-serving arrogance of the worse type of 'I'm holy and you're not' Christians.

"As far as visual arts... consider Thomas Kincaid, the greatest popular artist since Norman Rockwell"

Kinkade is no Norman Rockwell.

63

Sorry folks, when it comes to the arts relativism really does come into play full force. Sure, there are some key rules which you might be able to use as a litmus stick, but in the end the person opening the Left Behind book or looking at the Kincade is the one who decides if it was a great piece of art. Once again, can we separate the discussion on premil vrs. amil/postmil from the discussion on the worth of the books?

64

Yes - witness France - on most every issue
---
funk: Can 60 million people really be so wrong? Yes. Witness Titanic

65

jpe, I'm a little surprised at you. Although I'm used to your bigoted statements, you're statements are usually not so blatently ignorant.

You seem to be forgetting the past, oh.., several hundred years of art and literature. Ever hear of the 'Reformation Artists'? If that extends beyond you're knowledge of history,... how about Van Gogh, Rembrant, the many Christian artists and writers in England since Queen Elizabeth I, the many Christian artists and writers in American history, current artists like Thomas Kincade? Art is inspiring!

Bigotry is dull and tiresome!

66

Well. Looks like I'm a minority of one here. I read all of the books, and loved every one of them! If the writing was flawed, so what? I'm not perfect, either. If the theology wasn't accurate, so what? It was a STORY, a work of FICTION, it was a very long, drawn-out "what if?...story, and I didn't mind using my brain to make up the difference.

If you sniveling, arrogant know-it-alls think the sun rises with you, you might just better get on your knees and ask the Father if there might, just might, be something wrong with your worldview. I happen to believe the Bible is true, every single word of it, and I believe the part that speaks of a rapture just as much as I believe the entire third chapter of II Timothy. As I get the gist of most of the above comments, excepting Linda, most of you might want to look up that passage and actually pray about it!

Am I arrogant? I don't think so. I humble myself daily before the Lord, and I happen to know that I don't have a lock on the truth, except for the fact that the Bible is totally true.

Tim and Larry, I liked your books, and don't worry about those who don't. They might enjoy reading my copies, which will be here for the taking after the rapture, as I don't expect to be here.

Who am I? I am simply a Christian. I have studied this precious Book, the Bible, literally since I could read. I'm a credentialed minister of the Gospel of Jesus Christ in my fellowship, the Assemblies of God. Yep, I'm a Pentecostal believer, a genuine tongue-talking, Bible believing, Heaven awaiting, God-loving follower of Jesus my Lord.

Thank you so much for the opportunity to express myself here!

Joe

67

What a far-reaching discussion. More heat than light? The books were not well written and fell of as the series ran. I quit somewhere in the middle.

Pre-trib seems the real deal, but I will leave others to decide for themselves. (As long as you've got Jesus, does it really matter?)

Prophecy is hard, I don't agree with everything that was written, but the books make a pretty good job of stating their case. (I just disagree occasionaly.)

68

Bigotry is dull and tiresome!

So is horrific spelling and bad grammar, but you don't hear me reading anyone the riot act over it.

Ever hear of the 'Reformation Artists'?

Yeah, yeah, yeah. My comment was half in jest and half in early-morning-induced insanity.

69

To go back to the original question; as a tutorial in eschatology to non-believers it does Christ a disservice.

As acceptable reading for church-goers, it does nothing but propogate myths, which does Christ a disservice.

Either way, LaHaye's making money and Christians wonder why they've been consigned to medieval ignorance.

I have always had a problem with eschatological studies as they have been nothing but speculation, if not fabrication. Even without the express intent to do so, claims about the future do nothing but deceive. And as such are "False Witness" and do not serve the interests of God.

The coming of Jesus Christ was foretold and those who expected him did not recognize him. What makes you think things will be different the second time around?

70

Joe Comer wrote:

"If you sniveling, arrogant know-it-alls think the sun rises with you, you might just better get on your knees and ask the Father if there might, just might, be something wrong with your worldview. I happen to believe the Bible is true, every single word of it, and I believe the part that speaks of a rapture just as much as I believe the entire third chapter of II Timothy. As I get the gist of most of the above comments, excepting Linda, most of you might want to look up that passage and actually pray about it!"

fine, but what does II Tim. 3 have to do with the rapture? nothing.....

Joe Comer also wrote:

"Tim and Larry, I liked your books, and don't worry about those who don't. They might enjoy reading my copies, which will be here for the taking after the rapture, as I don't expect to be here.

"Who am I? I am simply a Christian. I have studied this precious Book, the Bible, literally since I could read. I'm a credentialed minister of the Gospel of Jesus Christ in my fellowship, the Assemblies of God. Yep, I'm a Pentecostal believer, a genuine tongue-talking, Bible believing, Heaven awaiting, God-loving follower of Jesus my Lord."

so people who don't believe exactly as you do won't be raptured? will they make it to heaven in your theology? even if they're a genuine Bible-believing, Heaven-awaiting, God-loving follower of Jesus Christ?

hasn't it ever occurred to you that a person can believe that every word of the Bible is true, and yet not come up with pre-mil dispensational eschatology? amil, post-mil, and historical pre-mil are all valid, orthodox, non-heretical eschatologies. part of the problem is that LaHaye & Co. seem to make eschatology the acid test for one's orthodoxy, if not for determining whether or not one is a true believer. simply put, LB is but *one* possible eschatological scenario. i don't have a "lock on truth," but LaHaye & Co. sure don't, either, and they've got no business making eschatology the determining factor for who's going to squeak through the pearly gates and who won't.

i've neither read the books nor seen a need to, so i can't comment as to the quality of the writing. but what i can say is that the whole shebang reeks of crass marketing. LaHaye & Co. have hit upon a money-making formula, and so they're milking it for all it's worth, laughing all the way to the bank.

oh, and btw - i'm an ex-pentecostal/charismatic who has, by the grace of God, discovered the "doctrines of grace."

71

I don't believe in all that they have written so I don't like taking the defender role, but I sure would like to know what myths are being propogated. A little specifics would be nice.

As for determining who will "squeak by," I don't think tht they ever claimed such power. There is One who is worthy to judge.

There may be parts of the bible that we don't like, but that doesn't mean that we can just throw them out.

72

Linda,

It's "Revelation", not "Revelations". Sheesh.

73

Okay people, time for some fun! Go to www.holyobserver.com, go to archives, go to April '04 and click on "view issue", scroll down to "Top 12 Reasons to Buy and Read Glorious Appearing", go to # 3, click and listen! This is so funny!

74

Joe Comer,
I am with you 100%. I am just a simple Christian. I believe the Bible, and since the terms "post trib", mid-trib,or pre-trib are not there I let the nit pickers argue over them. I am also Pentecostal. I didn't just learn the "doctrine of grace" I have seen it in the lives of those around me and live it daily. Grace has always been the major message of the Gospel. I really wonder if grace has any mesage without judgement. So many people want to ignore that part (Judgement) and condem it because it doesn't fit their view. Judgement is ugly and harsh, and none of us want to look at it. That simply doesn't change the fact that it is just as much a part of doctrine as grace. To me, grace without judgement, is just meaningless.
I am always quite amused by ex-penecostals who have "seen the light". Sorry sir, it was there all along. I freely admit that I am not nearly as well educated and intelligent as many who post here. Usually I am quite intimidated by that fact. I really enjoyed the LB series. What I find mediocre is all those old paintings (presented so lovingly) with their out of proportion bodies, shown in a dreamily languishing pose with a little circle around their heads. How silly and mediocre can people get? Mary and Jesus with little circles around their head looking pious and languishing. I don't begrudge anyone the enjoyment of those pictures. Nor do I sneer at people who enjoy them, I just wish them well and am happy that they enjoy those things. If you don't agree with the theology in Left Behnd, then fine, just say so. The snifing, sneering name calling, is completely unnecessary. I disagree, because of this, and this and so on, would be much more effective and reasonable. I still haven't seen anyone refute, that this is a fictional account of how Revelations could unfold. I happened to find the characters warm, loving and flawed, as we all are. The main objection I have seen here is that someone made money off of their view of how Revelations could unfold. My, my, that doesn't seem (to me) to be a major crime.

Sorry I don't have a spell checker, and I am disabled living on SSI and can't afford to buy one. My dictionary was packed away (by soneone else) and I haven't been able to look for it.

75

Whoops sorry, I could have taken more time and looked up the spelling in the Bible I keep by my bed.

76

I've read each of the Left Behind books--including The Rising which releases next month and will be on the New York Times bestseller list. Years ago, I recall reading the first book and thinking the opening premise was ridiculous. Then I was hooked on the characters and read until 2 a.m. It's the characters and the story that drives the book and the audience.

I wrote about Jerry B. Jenkins and bestsellers several days ago at: http://terrywhalin.blogspot.com/2005/01/what-makes-bestseller.html

People within publishing (and apparently outside of publishing) love to knock this series but many people have made a personal commitment to Jesus Christ from reading this series.

I believe as evangelicals we should celebrate the far reach of the Left Behind series. To sell 60 million books in a single series has no other explanation than a movement from God's hand.

Terry
The Writing Life

77

What I loved was the statement in one of the Left Behind sequels where one character said he knew that a particular prophesy was to be taken literally because it sounded literal. A wonderful subjective hermeneutic.

Premil/pretrib doesn't work but neither does preterism. There are some articles at squarehalobooks.com that debunk the preterism view. A flavor of amill seems to work best for me.

LB

78

I read the first couple of books in the LB series mostly to see how the authors would balance out the 'literal interpretation' (like that's not an oxymoron) with some of the more fantastic imagery (seven headed monsters, etc.) The first two books were reasonably well written, at least compared to most of the blech that gets published. However, the quality of the characters, plot, even dialogue seemed to plummet rapidly thereafter. I had to stop reading them after one of the characters told the Anti-Christ to 'read the end of the book [Bible], you lose' or similar. It wasn't because there was no story, but because the authors had given up trying to write a good story and started appealing to their base.
I would love to see a well written novel based on Revelation, but in my opinion, LB was not that novel (and/or set of novels.)

Jim

79

So many words. So many confident opinions. In the LB series? Yes; but also in this thread. There's nothing wrong with the dialogue or having differing opinions. But the lapses of humility, in some cases the patent arrogance in pronouncements, seem to me to be less unedifying and more detrimental to the cause of the gospel than the LB series. I can love and laud good art and wish it were more common in the Evangelical world; but I find little to admire in those whose chief, sometimes only, contribution to the world of art, beauty, and excellence appears to be finding and triunphantly pointing out the artistic deficiencies of some of their brethren in Jesus Christ.

80

Forgive my lack of proof-reading: substitute "less edifying" for "less unedifying" in my preceding comment.

81

I'm dipping in for just one comment. I found this site while researching an article I'm writing on an artist and how her work relates laterally to M Theory with a critique of intellegent design for good measure. Given that I'm a lapsed Methodist with no interest in organised religion and certainly not evangelical beliefs, I found these posts funny, witty and in one case scarey (this means you Linda). The Shaker comment was v amusing and it was apparent it was tongue in cheek. As for the Left Behind books. Ergh. My older brother became a Baptist and now believes I'm going to burn in hell because I don't share his narrow, selfish and bigoted point of view. That said I do love him and as long as we don't discuss religion we get along just fine. A couple years ago he gave me the book Left Behind. Not wanting to dismiss it out of hand I read about 1/3 before giving up. As many posters have already pointed out it is a fine example of the type of prose that would earn an F in the average high school English class. And poor writing coupled with such an evil nasty message. I'm sorry but if this is god's love I'm glad I'm out of the loop. By the way, I've lived in England for fifteen years and was a houseguest of the Bishop of Gloucester last September. The "gift" I brought him was my copy of Left Behind plus another related book my brother gave the title of which I can't remember (some kinda Christian 12 step programme with a tree on the cover). The Bishop wasn't familiar with the books and I warned him he'd better read them and get ready for the onslaught, since like it or not, every idea, good or bad, seems to cross the pond eventually.

82

I lied. I do have another comment. Thomas Kinkade a great artist?! Puhleeeze. . . It reminds me of an anecdote about a French 19th century courtesan. She was renowned for her ability to use her talents to seduce the great men of Paris despite the fact she was physically unattractive. On one occasion an inductee had not been forewarned of her physical failings and startled, stared slack-jawed at her face. To put him at ease she said "Am I not the ugliest woman in all of Paris!?". He wittily replied, "Ah no Madame, in all of Europe!" And that's how I feel about Thomas Kinkade. . .

83

Daisybush,
Art is ALWAYS in the eye of the beholder. Wht I find beautiful and refreshing you might find ugly. Hey that doesn't bother me. I certainly wish you well. I am really sorry if basic doctrine scares you, as I said I am pretty simple and see things from that point of view. I have never sneered at those that like Modern Art, nor do I sneer at those who like much of the earlier Church Art, I am happy for them. I am of course lost when they start analalizing all that stuff with vague and semi-meaningless (to me )statements.
I really can't understand why you are frightened, I have never promised anyone they would burn in hell or even hinted at that. I am not frightened by people I disagree with, I am intrigued. Maybe I am not educated enough to argue my points, but I am smart enough to look up what is said by others, and make my own judgements.

84

I shouldn't have personalised my post by using your name, so apologies for that Linda. I guess what I find scarey is the idea there are people out there (e.g. my brother) who assume a moral high ground and worse yet, actually choose to follow a belief system that will inflict the worst possible type of afterlife torture on those who don't subscribe to their particular belief. I just can't understand that. Which is why the immense popularity of these books both disturbs and scares me.

85

Daisybush:

"Thomas Kinkade a great artist?! Puhleeeze. . . "

Perhaps this "great modern art" would be more to your liking? LOL

86

Jeff:
As far as visual arts... consider Thomas Kincaid, the greatest popular artist since Norman Rockwell.

The problem with Kinkade isn't his technical prowess. It is his audience.

87

Not once did I indicate, nor do I believe, that only those who believe exactly as I do will be in Heaven. Rather, I think we'll all be pretty surprised at who we find there. As for hell, it certainly is an unpopular subject today, as it has been down through the centuries.

Jesus spent quite a lot of time discussing hell, and it is to him that we should listen. If my first comment seemed to be narrow, the Bible also takes a narrow view on the subject of hell. Is it just me, or does anyone else think we should chunk out today's popular views that "my God wouldn't send anyone to hell," and return to the Biblical views?

Let's just accept the Bible as it is, not try to use our human "wisdom" to attempt changing the doctrines of grace, forgiveness, and eternal life, and let God be God. Of course we are saved by grace, not by works, however, works are expected to follow the believer as we journey through life. Eternal punishment for the unbeliever or the rebellious is just as certain as is eternal fellowship with God for the follower of Christ.

Since God gave His best, that is, His son Jesus, for our salvation, does it not follow that refusal to accept his sacrifice on the cross should have eternal consequences?

It surely must break God's heart that anyone would reject Christ, and it must grieve Him deeply that He would have to, in His justice, allow anyone to depart this life and go to such a sad destination as hell. But God is just, and rejection of His son - the sacrifice and payment for our sin - certainly requires the payment for sin be paid by the sinner.

The "Left Behind" series is only a fictional account of what might be, it is not Biblical truth, and the argument should end there. Take it as it is, not as though heaven and earth turns on how we perceive it, friends! Let's just love one another, and let's love God and let Him be God, and the rest of the world will come out as He has ordained.

88

I'm a fan of mind-candy technothrillers, and a C.S. Lewisian "mere Christian."

The first couple of books were somewhat interesting, though I found the writing stilted at times. When Jenkins started writing about technology - sepecially aviation - it became clear that he had not clue one about the subject. By the time the last book came out, I was really disinterested in the series in general. But I finally got around to reading it a few months ago.

Drek.

I am amazed and appalled that a Christian writer could make the Second Coming seem so stultifyingly BORING!

89

I've posted something about this on my own blog.