1

I'm not sure where you attend, but at the pentecostal churches I go to, if the preacher teaches for an hour and a half then it was a short message.

However, just because the speaker is long doesn't mean the hearer is necessarily getting more.

2

You must not know much about Warren's sermons - because he does preach for an hour fairly often! And when he's not at an hour, he's almost always around 45 minutes. 40-45 minutes is about the average length of my sermons too. I agree our people aren't hearing as much theology as they used to, but cheap shots don't help you make your case.

3

Joe,

I think that preachers ought to preach on moral issues regardless of the issue's political impact. Examples include abortion is wrong, slavery is wrong, divorce is wrong, ignoring the needy is wrong, etc.

Nevertheless, I don't think that preachers should address politics as politics. People are preachers because they understand theology and Christianity, not because they understand statesmanship. As C.S. Lewis pointed out, it makes no more sense to have the preacher devise a detailed political program than it does to have the elders attempt to write literature. That is not their area of expertise or interest, and the church is probably not the appropriate place for such things. The Church should focus on Christ and its members. Let our legislators and voters decide whether the wrongness of divorce or ignoring the needy should translate into a specific public policy or remain a private matter.

What do you think?

4

Hudson I'm not sure where you attend, but at the pentecostal churches I go to, if the preacher teaches for an hour and a half then it was a short message.

When I was a kid we used to attend a Pentecostal church whose service didn’t start until 2 pm and didn’t end until the preacher got hungry for dinner. He definitely “preached” for more than an hour but I’m not sure it could be called a “sermon.” (Boy, how I dreaded Sundays back then.)

However, just because the speaker is long doesn't mean the hearer is necessarily getting more.

True. But what would we think of an educational system that only gave kids 20 minutes worth of instruction in English one time a week? Length in itself isn’t enough but it’s hard to really get much deep instruction done in such a short time-frame. That’s why so many pastors have a sermon “series” that goes over several weeks. Unfortunately, not everyone is able to attend each service so much of the impact is lost.

5

Louie You must not know much about Warren's sermons - because he does preach for an hour fairly often!

You’re right. I had intended to write “two hour-long” sermons. I had learned about Warren’s lengthier-than-usual sermons when I put together a profile on him. That is certainly one of the things that most impresses me about him.

I agree our people aren't hearing as much theology as they used to, but cheap shots don't help you make your case.

I didn’t intend for it to come across as a cheap shot. And I certainly don’t lay the blame on preachers. I think it is the unwillingness of us pew-sitters to expect to have to receive in-depth instruction from a sermon that is the primary problem.

JPB Nevertheless, I don't think that preachers should address politics as politics.

I agree. Davey makes much the same point.

6

Eh, Joe, not sure I'd agree that longer sermons means better instruction. Seems like there are a lot of things that would factor into that--for one thing, literacy itself tends to drive out orality in a culture's learning style. Add in a few more massive media changes--and I'm happy to join in the critique of the visual-media influence--and I'm not at all sure that talking longer would be better.

That said, I grew up with famous Baptist "you know what it means when a preacher looks at his watch? Nothing." style preaching. Sunday Schoool, two sermons on Sunday, Wednesday night Bible Study/Prayer Meeting, and then my Christian school with Bible class, Chapel weekly, and devotions daily. I won't say that having that many lessons didn't produce an impact--it certainly did.

But I'm not sure smashing Sunday School and two sermons together into one message--which the Puritans did partly from necessity, the people needing to be able to gather and disperse once, not repeatedly--would improve learning.

Cheers,
PGE

7

"....music by the choir/praise band—offering by the ushers—sermon by the preacher—football game by the NFL"

That sounds like any given Sunday to me.

One point, for me anyway, I see the Word better by reading than by someone preaching anyway.

But I may just have that peculiarity.

8

Eh, Joe, not sure I'd agree that longer sermons means better instruction. Seems like there are a lot of things that would factor into that--for one thing, literacy itself tends to drive out orality in a culture's learning style.

In our little church, we have a rotating pool of preachers, several of whom are also graduate students or Ph.D.'s in religion. The information content of the sermons tends to be very dense, even when they are not particularly long, and the post-sermon discussion and "sharing" period is often almost as long as the sermon itself. I think these sermons are very much an artifact of a literate culture (some of the preachers actually read a written sermon), and they fit my learning style quite nicely. I often find myself bored out of my skull by ministers who preach and teach in a more "oral" style. Nothing turns me off quicker than a pastor who repeats himself or works himself up into a lather during an extended sermon.

9

Interesting article, Joe.

Perhaps if less sermons contained the typical Christian fluff about how prayer is good and forgiveness is good and a nine-week series on love and had some more meat to them, people would be more willing to sit through them.

For me personally, sermons are usually my favorite portion of the service. Worship's fine, but I just like a good message more. However, so many preachers seem to phone it in every week that I don't blame anyone for not wanting to stick around for more than 30 minutes.

It's getting to the point where I don't want to go to church on Christmas or Easter anymore because I don't know if I can take one more watered-down holiday puff piece.

If I ran a church, the only way you could tell it was Christmas would be from the decorations, not the inanity of the service.

Maybe I'm just an old-fashioned crotchety Christian. But I'm 21!!

10

P.S. I'm not saying all preachers phone it in, it just seems like a lot of churches I go to have that problem.

Not everyone can be a Craig Hazen, i guess. :)

11

I'm with Phil on this one. Maybe I am a 25 year old "old-fashioned crotchety Christian." (I would probably put myself somewhere in the middle. I hate and despise doing things for tradition sake. I am annoyed by the song "Give me that Old Time Religion." But I don't want to change just to change. Bringing in guitars and drums don't automatically mean a better service.)

I am growing weary of our pastor's Christmas messages. Every year we start out in Luke at the beginning of December at the beginning of January we finish off with the Wise Men and Jesus being left at the temple.

Don't get me wrong. I love my pastor and I totally respect him and his knowledge and his love for Christ and his flock. I just long for something more.

I don't know how much better "church" would be if I were in charge of it. I want to see what church would be like if Jesus were actually in charge of it. I have a feeling that it would be so unlike any form of a church service that we have today.

12

JPB's idea of leaving politics to people who have expertise in it is why we have such a barbarous society today. Politics is the process by which we force someones morality on all of us. To exclude bible believing teaching from this process is a very humanist and dangerous concept.
Our pastor taught what the bible says about abortion and homosexuality. He then showed what was in the Green Party, The Democratic Party, The Republican and The Libertarian Parties platforms. He made no comment about which he thought was the best but did say he was open to giving his opinion after the service, in private.
It is a Christian's obligation to sift all political pronouncements through the theology of scripture. Our pastors are negligent if they fail in this.

13

I've gotten hooked on some current "gap fillers" recently. I like to call them "preacher blogs." (Originality is not my strong suit.) They probably add another 30 minutes of instruction/reflection each day. Well on my way to 10,000 hours!

http://bolsinger.blogs.com/weblog/
http://www.markdroberts.com/
http://jeffmccrory.typepad.com/jeff_mccrory/
http://tabletalk.typepad.com/tabletalk/
http://markdaniels.blogspot.com/
http://porchpondering.typepad.com/porchpondering/

14

Fascinating. I had no idea Card had done this. That's a remarkable thing.

An interesting historical take on Ricci's memory work is Jonathan Spence's The Memory Palace of Matteo Ricci. It's a biography of Ricci that discusses his use of memory techniques to gain influence in the Chinese court for missionary work. (The focus is mostly historical; it's not a primer on memory development, but uses that topic as a framing device and as part of the history.)

The classic survey of historical memory techniques (they were ancient; Ricci was far from the first to use them, or even to use the "memory palace") is Francis A. Yates's The Art of Memory. Much more comprehensive than the book on Ricci, but still far from a primer on how to develop the techniques.

The memory palace also appears as a plot point in Thomas Harris's last "Hannibal Lecter" book - titled Hannibal.

Much of that skill has been lost forever. Convincing reports of ancient memory abilities are staggering.

15

When I was a kid we used to attend a Pentecostal church whose service didn’t start until 2 pm and didn’t end until the preacher got hungry for dinner. He definitely “preached” for more than an hour but I’m not sure it could be called a “sermon.” (Boy, how I dreaded Sundays back then.)

Ouch. Too right and "dread" is not the right word. Try explaining the length of service to a visitor. I've talked to many pastors and preachers about with only moderate success.

Still, I think that when you account for Sunday School (1 hr), Sunday Service(1 hr), Midweek Service (1 hr), then it comes to about 3 hours of preaching per week. It's unfortnate that so many people rely on the teaching of others and don't study themselves. I can even accuse many preachers of doing the same.

Good post bro!

16

Never the less, I love to see preachers, assistant pastors, and evangelist get in a hough when I say that I don't like getting lectured to each and every Sunday. I wish more services had more a discussion feel to them sometimes.

17

I would love to try out an interactive sermon. Not sure how well that would work out in a church service of 2000+ people, but it sure would be something new and interesting.

(Although I suspect it would getting really uninteresting when boring/stupid/wordy people monopolize the mic for too long)

18

I would love to try out an interactive sermon. Not sure how well that would work out in a church service of 2000+ people, but it sure would be something new and interesting.

Heh. You need a smaller Church. It seems to work fairly well in a congregation of 30 people, and I've seen it done with 100 people.

19

I personally think thirty minutes is enough time because sunday morning should not be the primary place one gains their theology. Books, Bible studies, reading and meditating will trump hundreds of two hour sermons. I doubt whether those longer winded pastors are doing a lot of teaching anyway. The best preachers tend to spend a lot of time with stories and illustrations to make their points and still keep the listener engaged.

Both by tradition and from the little the New Testament tells us, the primary purpose of the Sunday service was not for hearing a message but for a more general idea of worship that included communion (hence the mass) and singing and psalms and maybe the exercise of spiritual gifts that may or may not still be around. Teaching was a part but not the main thing. That is a relatively modern invention. I don't think there is anything wrong with it, but its not the only proper way to do things, so to speak. And there are some of us who love to worship in a very emtional way through music and prayer. I wish we spent as much time praising God as a body as we do listenin g to the preacher. But that's just teh way I flow.

20

You might want to re-check church history. Long sermons have been the norm. And we aren't talking padded either; usually they were packed with theological points. Heck, even in Jesus time, the typical synagogue service was a few hours.

21

David Ridenour, Vice President of the National Center for Public Policy Research, sent an email to Davis asking if Staples would agree to pull its advertising from media companies that exhibited a left-wing bias in news and commentary. So far there’s been no answer. Anyone care to speculate how Staples will respond? (HT: Amy Ridenour)

Pacifica, the Free Speech and Link networks- the only left-wing networks out there despite the "gaming" attempted by the right, do not take advertising.

I could add CC-TV, but in the US, they don't take ads either.

22

Thanks for responding to my little message, and sorry for being a bit too harsh with the "cheap shot" line. I think all of us who preach regularly struggle with the issue of length and content. For me, I struggle to make sure the message is about something my people need to hear, is full of application and not just theory, and isn't too long or too short!
It isn't easy that's for sure! Personally I think that given today's audience and culture that you are right, blogs, classes, etc may be the best place for theology and sermons for applying the truth in practical ways to our lives.
At least that's how it seems to work for me!

23

Apparently MMFA was (shock!) lying!

http://www.corporate-ir.net/ireye/ir_site.zhtml?ticker=PR_96244&script=410&layout=-6&item_id=660052

24

the above post in in relation to the Staples/Sinclair issue.

25

I would love to try out an interactive sermon. Not sure how well that would work out in a church service of 2000+ people, but it sure would be something new and interesting.

The pastor of a church I used to attend when I lived elsewhere used to always leave time at the end of the evening service for Q and A. Often it was the most interesting part of the evening (which is not to say the preaching was lacking).

I don't preach from the pulpit myself, but I liked the idea so much that I try to incorporate it whenever I teach Sunday school.

26

Teaching was a part but not the main thing. That is a relatively modern invention.

Not so. There are countless sermons and homilies that have survived from the ancient and medieval Church.

There are even old manuscripts of preaching helps for priests, who often could not read the Bible of the day because they were uneducated in Latin. Thus they needed "Cliff's Notes" to help them prepare the homily for the week.

27

Staples has now joined Target as a store I will never shop at again. I often go to Customers and tell them run over to Staples and pick up this or that item that we need. I wrote Staples telling them that from now on out I will be sure to tell customers NOT to shop at Staples for any thing we may need.