1

Kerry said he supported the assault weapons ban because cops don’t want to “go into a drug bust and be facing an AK-47.” An AK-47? What kind of drug dealer uses an AK-47? Are the drug busts taking place in Cambodia?

So do you support the repealment of the ban?

2

So do you support the repealment of the ban?

I think the ban is moot since true assault weapons are already restricted under the National Firearms Act of 1934.

3

... Kerry quotes the scripture that, “faith without works is dead.” Faith that says that life begins at conception but refuses to work against such atrocities is also dead – and so are the infants it fails to protect.

Well said, Joe. I caught that inconsistancy as well, though I'm sure it flew right past 98% of the talking heads.

JFK said-
My faith affects everything that I do...
And I think that everything you do in public life has to be guided by your faith, affected by your faith, ...
That's why I fight against poverty. That's why I fight to clean up the environment and protect this earth. That's why I fight for equality and justice. All of those things come out of that fundamental teaching and belief of faith.

His faith can lead him to take on all these great causes to do "God's work", yet his faith can't allow him to vote against allowing a baby's brain to be sucked out of his skull?

A tree is known by it's fruit... Kerry's fruit is rotten indeed.

4

Joe writes:
7. "Doesn’t Kerry have any family member of his own that he can “out?” Did he really need to borrow one from Dick Cheney?"

Yes, I believe Theresa Hienz-Kerry is really a man. Why didn't he just "out" her/him?

Joe, so many of your points hit the nail on the head, I think I need to read your post again just to massage my (logic) senses.

Thanks for your common sense views and integrity.

5

So Kerry actually had the gall to use "faith without works" is dead to support his position? Last week, I used that same verse to express why I thought his rhetoric on the separation of church and state was dangerous.

6

8. When it’s pointed out that some Catholic leaders are saying it’s a sin to vote for a candidate who supports abortion Kerry quotes the scripture that, “faith without works is dead.” Faith that says that life begins at conception but refuses to work against such atrocities is also dead – and so are the infants it fails to protect.

I'm still trying to understand how Kerry figures that checking his values at the door to the Senate chambers is a good thing. If in fact that is what he does. I'm begining to think that isn't what Kerry does. What he's probably doing is concealing his true values to get votes. That is a better alternative to his statement at face value, i.e., that he believes all senators should be amoral creatures, driven entirely by polls. Neither choice is admirable.

7

"I want justice. And there's an old poster out West that says, 'Wanted: Dead or Alive.' " Bush 9/17/01

"So I don’t know where he is. Nor -- you know, I just don’t spend that much time on him really, to be honest with you. I…I truly am not that concerned about him." Bush 3/13/02 emphasis added

"I never said I wasn't concerned about Osama bin Laden" Bush 10/13/04

What do you call that? A Flip-flop and a half? A triple flip? Whatever it's called, it's awfully disturbing to see the President of the United States tell a whopper on national TV especially concerning the most wanted man on earth. Egads. What the hell was going through his mind when he said that? I bet his handlers about passed out.

8

ds,

only kerry wears flip-flops on this blog. never question the commander in chief, or his choice of words.

'So do you support the repealment of the ban?'

'I think the ban is moot since true assault weapons are already restricted under the National Firearms Act of 1934.'

the question is on the 50 round clips that you can now buy for you semi-auto. anyone who has shot a full vs. seme realizes that there is little difference with a properly tuned trigger. full-auto is really just a waste of bullets. but, now, the bad guys can pump twice as many rounds into the cops at once. all hail big-business and the nra.

9

"the question is on the 50 round clips that you can now buy for you semi-auto. anyone who has shot a full vs. seme realizes that there is little difference with a properly tuned trigger. full-auto is really just a waste of bullets. but, now, the bad guys can pump twice as many rounds into the cops at once. all hail big-business and the nra."

Oh. I see. Now "the bad guys" know the "assault" clips are legal. Uh-oh. Those criminals have been waiting for this day. Before the ban expired all murderers, drug-dealers, rapists, and thieves respected this gun law and didn't obtain these illegal clips.

What a joke.

"properly tuned trigger"

Come on. What are you pretending to know?

10

If I remember, there were problems with vaccine distribution last year also. I suspect the reason the medicine isn't more plentiful is that there's not enough profit in it.

In answer, President Bush's brought up his concerns about safety in drug re-importation, and manufacturers' fear of lawsuits. He was also able to ask us to do something; to not get the vaccine if you don't need it. So, I thought it was a well-chosen question, and a good answer.

11

I feel like being the angels advocate this morning so... (not that Kerry is an angel, but I hate to say devil's advocate!)

when the actual operation was underway Kerry said he supported the administration's strategy: "I think we have been smart. I think the administration leadership has done it well, and we are right on track."

Couldn't this just be a case of "hindsight is 20/20"?

Does he not realize that the majority of America doesn’t subscribe to HBO?

Hmm, is that accurate? And even if it is, we don't have HBO but somehow, my husband and I both know who Tony Soprano is. And I did think that that comment was clever!

I think that he used Cheney's daughter because it is more common knowledge that she is a lesbian and so he probably thought the his "they are born that way" arguement would have more appeal if the person was more real to people.

I don't know if it was such a bad move either. The people who are undecideds, obviously don't feel strongly about abortion and gay marriage or they wouldn't be undecided (imho). And among those people, I think that the idea that homosexuals are born that way and can't help it, is pretty common.

Faith that says that life begins at conception but refuses to work against such atrocities is also dead – and so are the infants it fails to protect.

True, but there are other life issues involved and that are equally important in some liberal's eyes; that war brings death also, as does capital punishment. So in their mind there is a life issue on both sides.

If abortion is truly constitutional right then it should be obvious to all judges, right?

Well life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness was supposed to be a right for everyone also, but not all judges have always agreed on that either.

Just my thoughts...

Bush's love for his wife was very evident wasn't it?! That was indeed, very touching. And I thought that Bush did a good job last night.

12

The accusatory tone at the President about his sincere and abiding evangelical faith -- and Scheiffer is just the latest -- is hypocritical on two fronts:

1. Kerry was just recently holding a defacto get out the vote rally from the pulpit of a church. Yet no question comes to him about mixing "church and state" or "politics and religion."

2. Jimmy Carter, in his book "Living Faith," writes movingly about how he prayed more constantly and fervently during his time in the White House than at any time in his life before or since. And he talks about how he recited a line of Scripture every day before walking into the Oval. Why does the secular left forget that one of its own heroes relied, as does Bush, on a deep faith for comfort, wisdom and inspiration?

13

Here's the context of the President's quote on why he wasn't concerned about bin Laden:

First here's the question:

Q But don't you believe that the threat that bin Laden posed won't truly be eliminated until he is found either dead or alive?

Now his answer in context:

Well, as I say, we haven't heard much from him. And I wouldn't necessarily say he's at the center of any command structure. And, again, I don't know where he is. I -- I'll repeat what I said. I truly am not that concerned about him. I know he is on the run. I was concerned about him, when he had taken over a country. I was concerned about the fact that he was basically running Afghanistan and calling the shots for the Taliban.

But once we set out the policy and started executing the plan, he became -- we shoved him out more and more on the margins. He has no place to train his al Qaeda killers anymore. And if we -- excuse me for a minute -- and if we find a training camp, we'll take care of it. Either we will or our friends will. That's one of the things -- part of the new phase that's becoming apparent to the American people is that we're working closely with other governments to deny sanctuary, or training, or a place to hide, or a place to raise money.

Basically, do you want to focus about finding bin Laden or focus on destroying the infrastructure surrounding him? bin Laden now is not powerful enough in Afghanistan to disrupt their elections. He may even be dead.

Let's say we captured or provably killed bin Laden in Tora Bora. Would that have won the war on terror? Not at all. It would merely have given us a false sense of comfort.

Neither candidate is "unconcerned" about fighting terrorism. The right way to argue this point is to highlight the strategic differences between the candidates. If you believe the focus of the war on terrorism should be on capturing or killing bin Laden then vote for Kerry. If you believe in a more expansive and multi-faceted approach then vote for Bush. This alongside the outrage concerning Mary Cheney proves Kerry is a cheap demogogue, lacking any true moral core.

14

Kris I feel like being the angels advocate this morning so... (not that Kerry is an angel, but I hate to say devil's advocate!)

You do a better job of defending Kerry than most of his supporters.

Couldn't this just be a case of "hindsight is 20/20"?

It could. But Kerry has never said, “At the time I thought X, but I know I see…” Honestly, I don’t think he remembers what he said about Tora Bora because he was pandering by giving that answer just as he is pandering with his new position. I’m not against him changing his mind or even “misremembering” a previous position he held. But he doesn’t appear to have a core conviction about the GWOT that he bases his positions on.

Joe: Does he not realize that the majority of America doesn’t subscribe to HBO?

Hmm, is that accurate?

Out of 107 million households with televisions, only 27 million have HBO. That seems like a lot but the highest rated cable episode of all times was the season finale of The Sopranos with 9 million viewers. CSI gets 3 times that many on an average week.

And even if it is, we don't have HBO but somehow, my husband and I both know who Tony Soprano is. And I did think that that comment was clever!

Maybe I’m being to hard on him but I thought it was a generic “Saying A is like B is like saying C is like D.” He could have thrown just about any hip reference into that formula without having to use a single brain cell.

I think that he used Cheney's daughter because it is more common knowledge that she is a lesbian and so he probably thought the his "they are born that way" argument would have more appeal if the person was more real to people.

But is Cheney’s daughter the only well-known celebrity that Kerry knows? Before you go on national TV and talk about a private citizens sexual orientation you should probably clear it with them first. I think that line will come back to haunt him unless he apologizes for it by the end of the week.

I don't know if it was such a bad move either. The people who are undecideds, obviously don't feel strongly about abortion and gay marriage or they wouldn't be undecided (imho). And among those people, I think that the idea that homosexuals are born that way and can't help it, is pretty common.

The answer wasn’t bad but I think the message was obscured by his choice of examples.

True, but there are other life issues involved and that are equally important in some liberal's eyes; that war brings death also, as does capital punishment. So in their mind there is a life issue on both sides.

But as the Catholic Bishop of New York recently pointed out, although there are times when capital punishment and war are appropriate that is never true of abortion.

If abortion is truly constitutional right then it should be obvious to all judges, right?

Well life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness was supposed to be a right for everyone also, but not all judges have always agreed on that either.

True. But those are under the Declaration of Independence, not the Constitution.

Bush's love for his wife was very evident wasn't it?! That was indeed, very touching. And I thought that Bush did a good job last night.

I agree. While I can stand THK I was a bit sad that her husband dissed her so badly. After the implied joke about marrying for money he should have backed it up with a declaration of his true love.

SMD The accusatory tone at the President about his sincere and abiding evangelical faith -- and Scheiffer is just the latest -- is hypocritical on two fronts:

In Scheiffer’s defense, I think when he heard Bush say that he had turned to a “higher authority” he assumed the President was talking about Karl Rove. ; )

15

tommy the cat:

I know that some of my response will appear to be nit picking but I cannot let your ignorance about the subject go without correction. First, there is no such a thing as a "50 round clip". Assault weapons utilize magazines not clips. "Clip" is a Hollywood term. Not a big deal but you mark yourself as someone who is not serious by using the term. Second, 50 round magazines were never "illegal". The Ban simply prevented the manufacture of new magazines capable of holding more than 10 rounds after the date of the Ban. The market was awash with magazines holding more than 10 rounds for virtually every firearm ever made. I seriously doubt that the artificially inflated prices deterred drug dealers who seem to always have plenty of cash. Third, regarding your comment that the bad guys can "now pump twice as many rounds": The expiration of the Ban has no effect on the regulation of fully automatic firearms. Fully auto firearms are heavily regulated and have been for many decades. The Clinton Assault Ban had nothing to do with fully-auto firearms. Also, if fully auto is just an ammo waster, why does every military force in the world utilize it? With proper user training, fully automatic small arms are very effective. Fourth, no matter how finely you "tune" a semi-automatic firearm's trigger, you still have to pull and release it for every shot.

Lastly, "cdm" did a great job of brutalizing your logic on gun control. Please read it. I cannot improve on cdm's response. By the way, I am a career felony prosecutor and know a little something about the use of firearms by criminals. The ones that I have prosecuted for crimes involving the use of a firearm have not seemed overly concerned about your sacred gun control laws making their possession or use of a particular firearm illegal. Maybe they just hid their concern well, because I am sure that they agonized over using that illegal firearm. Maybe, somewhere there is a criminal who decided against committing a crime, or decided to use a stick or a knife because of a gun control provision. I just haven't seen or heard of him in almost 15 years of prosecuting.

16

This alongside the outrage concerning Mary Cheney proves Kerry is a cheap demogogue, lacking any true moral core.

I agree with much of what you say but I feel that's nonsense Rich. The politics of hatred and prejudice against Gay Americans are a tactic first purposely cultivated and then purposely employed by the Bush Campaign to stir the ferver of religious bigotry for political points. That's damn ugly. Therefore it's perfectly legitimate to hold Bush's feet to the fire on it and point out the fly in the ointment with nurturing hatred of gays:

Hypocrisy, full stop.

We often hear that Gay Americans are 'just like us'. That's not entirely accurate. They're not ‘just’ like us ... They're our parents, our brothers and sisters, our cousins and uncles and aunts, our friends and neighbors and co-workers. They come in conservative, liberal, young and old, black and white. Smart and stupid, charming and tedious. They aren't 'just like us’ … They are us.

Using Cheney’s daughter to strike a stinging slap in the face of bigots drives that point home. Does mentioning the fact that one of Cheney's children is Gay make some of you uneasy? Excellent. Outstanding. I couldn’t be happier that it does. Because that underscores the problem you have. You're bigots.

For those of us who harbor no hatred for Gay Americans, calling Cheney's daughter a lesbian carries about as much negative impact as calling Jenna Bush a brunette. The ugliness implied in the label lesbian is an artifact of the religious bigotry so carefully cultivated by the President. If you’re squirming when we refer to Cheney’s daughter as a lesbian, you’re drinking from your own poisoned well; Bon appetite.

17

Gallup. Snap poll following debate. MoE 5%.

Kerry 52%
Bush 39%

Republican 36
Democrats 36
Independents 28

18

In regards to the assault weapon ban. Maybe I mis heard, but he said Kerry said he was worried about criminals getting an AK47. But then he quoted an officer saying they busted a house that had an AK47 on the bed. Didn't that bust happen while the ban was in place and the criminal had the gun in violation of the ban, prooving it's uselessness?

19

ag and cdm,

i am not sure where people got the idea that i have 'sacred gun control laws.' i own a shotgun after my house was broken into while my wife and i were in bed. i shot small-bore competively in high school, college, and competed at the olypic training center in colo. springs. i have hunted and shot (and eaten) deer, antelope, and elk.

however, an ak-47, ar-15, an uzi, or mac-10 are a different story. they are not home defence weapons. you don't need a large-capacity clip to hunt. if i shot them in my house i'd likely kill a neighbor or two while trying to defend myself.

now, if one were to make a point that these weapons are necessary for defence against tyranny, as patrick henry said, then yes, they are necessary for the populace to defend itself against a rouge government. but, let's call assult weapons what they are: weapons to fight the government. or they are for the bad guys, but as you say they are already armed and don't need any more weapons. i guess only nra members are gun-collectors.

my comments on the trigger come from my own experience when using a freind's semi-ak setting veruses his full-ak (he is a gun dealer and has a license). i could shoot almost as many rounds in 5 secends with the semi as with the full. had to do with the trigger being modified to be loose and easy to pull. and, of course, we had pre-ban 50 round clips. in my 'hood we call em clips. 'magazine' has too many syllables.

20

I don't know what to think about invoking Cheney's daughter, both by Edwards and then by Kerry. I just think it's a little creepy. Kind of like when Bob Schieffer asks Kerry a question about Kerry's wife, and he starts talking about his mother.

Maybe it's me, but I think it's just impolite to discuss the other candidate's family members. The whole of the country knew what a screw-up Billy Carter was, but RR didn't say how moved he was that Jimmy's drunken slob brother was accepted by the family. Ditto for Geraldine Ferraro, when her husband was under indictment--Bush I didn't make mention of it in his campaign for VP re-election.

Maybe Ms. Cheney is the only lesbian Kerry knows, and he was grasping at straws.

21

I love most of your points. Its a really funny world we live in. I missed most of the debates due to school but from what I did see, I did not see them answering the question but dancing around what the answer should be.

22

rider of the apocalypse - Why are you responding to ag and cdm's comments to tommythecat, and if you are one in the same, why do you refer to your wife in your most recent comment when several weeks ago you corrected a commenter who referred to you as a male?

23

1. Cheney's daughter is getting paid hundreds of thousands of dollars to have a key role in cheney's campaign operation. That makes her less of a private citizen than say my neighbor Ricky.
2. An infant is not a fetus--just like a toddler is not a teenager. YOu may believe the fetus should be treated as if it were an infant but it is not an infant.
3. I was so angry at Kerry for not repsonding to Bush's partial birth abortion smear. Kerry has said repeatedly that he voted against the ban b/c it did not allow for exceptions in the case of a woman's health or life being in danger. Several state courts have now tossed out the ban just because of this. These pro-lifers really seem to have very little reagrd for the woman's health or life in this area. That's too bad, b/c it makes suspect their "pro-life" stance.
4. Kerry was consistent throughout the debtes. Alittle dry, alittle heavy on the numbers, but always steady and cure of his words and never thrown off or nervous. Presidentail. maybe nothte kind of president you would want to invite to a bar-b-q, but still very presidential.
5. Bush was allovr the place. Tlak about inconsistent. First he was a puter, then a shouter, and last night he was the class clown. You gotta hand it to his handlers. They really drummed it in to the guy not to try too hard to actually answer the questions and instead to bring everything back to "NO CHILD LEFT BEHIND" no matter how convulted it would seem to the listener.
So his answer tot he guy who just lost his job due to outsourcing was--hey, we will make sure your child is held to high standards in school.

The thing I liked most about the debates--even more than that Kerry won and it appears the majority of those polled also think so, was that our country is such that the leader of the most powerful country on earth and the man who wants to unseat him, can stand a few feet from each other and say awful things about each other (some true, some not) and shake hands afterward and their wives can hug. I mean, this is what make this country so special--the rule of law and the freedoms we have to speak out against those in power if we so choose and to campaign for change (or campaign for more of the same)and we don't resort to violence. So many people all over the world put their lives on the line to speak out against the political leaders in their countries. We talk, argue, shout, joke, debate.
God Bless America!
And God Bless John Kerry, our next president!

24

Someone up there said: If abortion is truly constitutional right then it should be obvious to all judges, right?

All you you stop talking about "Constitutional Rights". The Constitution (and Bill of Rights) doesn't grant rights. It puts restrictions on the government, which is not the same thing.

The second amendment concerning arms, as written by the framers, was not so sportsmen could enjoy themselves by bagging bambi. It was because guys like Jefferson didn't trust any government at all. They wanted the threat of popular uprising to be everpresent in the mind of the legislators in case they got too far out of line. Hence, the right to own M-16's and automatic weaponse are exactly what would have thought we should have protected. Jefferson would probably have thought we should have the right to mortars other military hardware. Jefferson predicted that America would have a Revolution-like war every few generations to put down the uppity goverment.

Kerry also thinks the "right" to abortion is in the Constitution and that means it should be subsidised. Which is faulty on two counts. First, there is zero mention of abortion in the Constitution. And second, the Consitition is about limitiations on Government not a granting of rights.

25

rider,
Thanks for the honest and thoughtful response. Sorry for making a big deal about "clips". I am confused though. Your previous post was from "tommy the cat" I thought.

I have to point out that no serious constitutional scholar believes that the 2d Amendment had anything to do with either hunting or self defense from criminal assault. The intent was to ensure that the people had the right and the means to bring an end to a tyrannical government.

Please also remember that not everyone lives in a neighborhood. Where I live, having a rifle available for defense in certain situations is not only practical but wise. Shotguns have limited range and pistols are very difficult to shoot proficiently under stress unless you practice regularly.

I think that cdm's point, and mine, is that the "assault weapons" Ban was a sham. It banned a class of firearms solely because of their appearance. It was a silly piece of legislation designed to make politicians look good for "doing something".

I too, feel outrage when a criminal commits a crime on an innocent victim with a firearm (or by any means). But blaming the instrument is illogical and ineffective. It only allows the politicians to enact some gun control and appear to be doing something about crime. See Washington DC's gun control history as an example. Call me old fashioned but I would prefer that our politicians actually do something effective. Even some prominent pro-Ban activists have admitted that the repeal (sunset) will not matter one whit regarding the use of assault weapons by criminals.

There are very serious issues about how society should respond to those among us who prey on others. Gun control answers none of those issues. It is a cheap way out for the politicians. Cheap, and dangerous when it infringes upon the constitutional rights of law abiding citizens. Funny how the "slippery slope" argument is used by some when legislation touches upon free speech or privacy rights but never the 2d Amendment. Again, thnks for the thoughtful and heartfelt response.

26

How did anything that happen last night "out" Cheney's daughter? Mary Cheney is openly homosexual, and has been for years. There was no "outing" involved. Now surely, Kerry had a wink and a smile when he brought it up, because he knew that the administration would rather not discuss the fact that they have an open homosexual working for them, but it was by no means "outing" her.

27

1. These are two of the children out of thousands who would not exist without the In Vitro Fertilization (IVF) tehcniques:

http://www.adelaide.edu.au/pr/publications/adelaidean/2003/issue2/images/r_norm.jpg

2. These are blastocytes produced by IVF technique which have yet to be implanted

http://www.abc.net.au/reslib/200402/r15587_38314.jpg

3. This is a stem cell being extracted from a blastocyte like the ones above to produce an embryonic stem cell (ESC) line before the blastocyte is flushed down the toilet:

http://www.blc.arizona.edu/INTERACTIVE/cells3l/cells.gif

A total global ban on IVF would mean thousands of children alive today wouldn’t exist. It would not however keep a single pregnancy from being voluntarily aborted. It would not save a single life.
If we’re to permit IVF and allow couples who cannot for whatever reason easily conceive on their own, then we’re going to have blastocytes such as the ones shown in pic 2 being discarded. A total global ban on research into stem cell lines made form the cells extracted from blastocytes would not save a single child from abortion. Not one. However embryonic stem cell research might save millions of lives down the road and alleviate human misery on a global scale if not retarded or stifled by the politics.

If life is more important to you than politics, if you are pro-life in more than label only, vote for life and vote against ignorance. Vote for ESCR and IVF.

28

How did anything that happen last night "out" Cheney's daughter?

I don’t mean the term in the sense that Kerry was literally dragging Mary Cheney “out of the closet.” If that were the case his VP would have beaten him to it. The reason I use that term is because that was the way that Kerry intended it. Kerry’s “wink and a smile” shows he was trying to send a signal to homophobes that “Hey, your guy has one of them on their side…” It was a disgusting move and, to be honest, I’m rather shocked that you would defend it.

Now surely, Kerry had a wink and a smile when he brought it up, because he knew that the administration would rather not discuss the fact that they have an open homosexual working for them,…

Is it really a secret that Dick Cheney’s gay daughter works on the campaign? No. So why would Kerry pull a gay-baiting stunt like that? Because he’s a hypocritical panderer who will say anything to get elected.

I have to say it again. I’m shocked that you would support such reprehensible behavior. If Bush had said something similar you would be howling.

29

"However embryonic stem cell research might save millions of lives down the road and alleviate human misery on a global scale if not retarded or stifled by the politics. "

Burning jews might have kept the Germans warm in the winter time as well. You understand the difference between the word "might" and "will".

DS, by your definitions, I assume a blastocyte in a wanted pregnancy is a baby, seeing as how it is "mass of about 100 cells created as the zygote multiplies it's cell. The external part will become the placenta. The internal part will become the embryo".

A blastocyte in an unwanted pregnancy is a .. lab rat?

30

ag,

thanks for your response as well. i use the rider name at work. i should change the tommy name at home i suppose.

my original post was more to stir thought more than stae an opinion. perhaps i was jumping the gun, so to speak. the gun-control issue isn't really a major issue for me. i know that among progressives i am virtually alone in this. ideally, in my opinion, it would be great if no one had guns, like in europe. when i lived there, knowing that you probably wouldn't get shot in bar fight, street, by the cops, etc., set up a whole different society. if you stared at someone's girl too long, or got angry in traffic, you chances of getting shot were slim. i know that this is not in any way possible now in america, and because of that, outlawing guns will ensure only outlaws have them. and besides, they are a lot of fun!

31

~DS~,

There isn't a ban on stem cell research now. Who is currently suggesting we implment one? Why do you call restricting federal spending a "ban"? Perhaps you would like to applaud Bush for supporting stem cell research in the first place, even if later restrictions (on funding!) were put in place?

This claim is similar to "banning" federal funds allocated to perform abortion. These issues are both ethically in dispute. So we don't spend tax money on it. Are you suggesting all biological research depends on federal grants?

The committe on bioethics concluded that while a blastocyte isn't "human", it isn't, from an ethical standpoint a turnip either. As such, they prescribed caution and requested time to fully explore the implications of our actions before proceeding.

For further reading, check out The Abolition of Man by C.S. Lewis and perhaps Aldous Huxley's Brave New World.

32

Joe noted:

Enlistments are for eight years.

We've progressed in the last 2500 years. If I recall correctly from my history books, the Lacodaemian (Spartan) peers were required to serve from age 7 through 60 in the time of the Peloponnesian War. And everyone was not just eligible for the "draft", "callups" were 100%. In fact, I think the peers where required to lodge in barracks at least until they were about 30. They married younger but were required/expected to break regulations and sneak out to liase with their wives.

33

About Cheney's lesbian daughter and the "pandering" being done by the Kerry camp on this. What is Bush doing with his constitutional ammendment against Gay marriage? He is activley seeking to keep gays on the fringe of our society. He knows it's never going to fly, but he is pandering to homophobes so they will vote for home. That is really disgusting.

Whatever Kerry and Edwards can do that is true and is lawful to get more votes they should do. If appealing to the homophobia of some evangelicals by only mentioning the well-known truth that Cheney's daughter has sex with women, will make some of these judgers and haters stay home on election day then so be it. Kerry stated a well-known fact.

What if the question had been about blacks and Kerry had noted that Cheney had a black son-in-law. ANd meanwhile Bush was supporting a constitutional ammendment to keep blacks from marrying whites. Would Kerry pointing out that some white person in Cheney's family was married to a black person be offensive? WHy? Because there are racists in this world we should pretend that everyone is white? I don't get it./

34

I didn't say there was a ban on ESCR. I said even if there was a total ban you would not prevent a single abortion...because stem cell lines do not come from aborted fetuses. They come from blastocytes left over from IVF techniques. And if you ban IVF all you would succeed in doing is keeping a bunch of kids from ever being born, again without saving a single life. There's nothing pro-life about it. It's pure politics, nothing more.

35

Sammy wrote, "What if the question had been about blacks and Kerry had noted that Cheney had a black son-in-law. ANd meanwhile Bush was supporting a constitutional ammendment to keep blacks from marrying whites. Would Kerry pointing out that some white person in Cheney's family was married to a black person be offensive? WHy? Because there are racists in this world we should pretend that everyone is white? I don't get it./"

Sammy could have easily written instead, "What if the question had been about pedophiles and Kerry had noted that Cheney had a pedophile for a son-in-law. ANd meanwhile Bush was supporting a constitutional ammendment to keep pedophiles from molesting children. Would Kerry pointing out that some pedophile in Cheney's family having sex with children be offensive? WHy? Because there are pedophilies in this world we should pretend that everyone is not a pedophile? I don't get it."

Being black or white is not a behavior. Having sex is a behavior. Having sex in a deviant manner is a behavior which should be regulated against.

36

~DS~,
I only partially agree that "life" will be saved if IVF blastocytes are used for research. And I will agree that since there are no plans to implant the blastocytes no "future babies" would be saved. But you might ask, why weren't they destroyed years ago, before stem cell research came on the horizon. I would argue that it was because there are ethical implications inherent in their destruction.

The ethical questions regarding their use do not go away just because they are sitting around. A blastocyte, while still not human, is still (ethically/morally) different than a pig. It has the potential to become a human. We are counseled that destruction should not be taken lightly. The point is, let's hash it out and discuss what to do, and not blindly charge ahead and ignore all ethical implications. You seem to have decided these questions for yourself already. That's fine. But there are people who are studying this who are arguably both smarter and wiser than either you and I who haven't yet come to a consensus. What's the rush?

37

I don't think some of you Kerry-defenders realize just how many votes Kerry lost with that shot at Cheney's daughter...children are off limits in a debate..end of story. At least Edwards last week was debating Cheney and the topic was about Cheney's disagreement with the President on the marriage issue.

The problem was magnified with Mary Beth Cahill describing a candidate's child as "fair game" in the election...and went nuclear when Edwards' wife had the gall to say (much like DS said above) that the outrage really shows how ashamed she is of her daughter.

Only the truest diehard for Kerry cannot see how this was so completely out of bounds. All day I have heard gay people comment about how THEY were outraged, because even though they too are publically "out" they still desire privacy from the general public. Kerry needs to apologize FAST for this, as do Cahill and Mrs. Edwards..or he has just created a huge albatross for the last 19 days of the election...and he and the MSM and some of you will not even realize it until the exit polling on November 2nd.

One side note about the Constitutional amendment issue that Bush 'created' as a wedge issue. I might agree with the view IF we did not have judges and mayors ordering by fiat the allowance of homosexual marriage...in California at least AGAINST the vast majority of the will of the people since we had a proposition on the subject only a few years ago.

Bush did not suggest the amendment until AFTER this undemocratic activism began a few months ago...

38

BUSH CLAIMS: “We have a problem with litigation in the United States of America. Vaccine manufacturers are worried about getting sued, and therefore they have backed off from providing this kind of vaccine.”

REALITY:

Mergers, Not Lawsuits, To Blame for Lack of Vaccine Producing Companies. “Also, Bush blamed lawsuits for the shortage, but that's not the cause of frequent vaccine shortages, according to the Institute of Medicine, a division of the National Academy of Sciences. The problem is that vaccines aren't profitable and drug companies keep merging. In 1967, nearly 30 drug companies made vaccines. That was down to five last year, and of those only two make flu vaccines.” [Pioneer Press, 10/14/04]

39

Kerry didn't out Cheney's daughter. Cheney "outed" his daughter weeks ago. Really, it has been public knowledge for years.

Give me a break!

40

A steady 3-0 trifecta for Kerry vs. Goldilocks Bush: First debate too cold, second too hot, and the third just right (right-wing that is).

The final debate between Senator John Kerry and President GW Bush was more fluff then substance, so you would expect that Bush would have a considerable advantage. To his credit, Bush was ok on the relatively insignificant (relative to the major issues of the day that face our country) questions on his family, gay being nature or nurture, and the such. When it came to the important questions like health care, social security, and the jobs issue, Bush avoided the questions like they were never asked. He was talking about his under funded no-child-left-behind bill, despite the fact that individuals are told that they are over-qualified for positions and while individuals with masters degrees have to work at the local grocery store as a clerk to make ends meat.

In kind with the myth comment by Secretary John Snow, Bush patronizes and speaks condescendingly to any individual that lost his or her job during his reign. How naive can you get when you are suppose to relate to an unemployed or underemployed individual in their 30’s or 40’s and all the president can say is he is raising the standards for elementary school students so that they can add, subtract, multiply, and divide? The honest interpretation of Bush's dodge is that he has NO plan. On this point alone, JFK won the debate; JFK recognizes the problem and has explained numerous times how he will address the growing employment gap by closing corporate loop holes and encouraging companies to create jobs in the U.S. Also John Kerry states that he would extend unemployment benefits when needed to give the support to those individuals in a time of hardship and transition.

In the end, the questions were by far the weakest out of any of the debates. I mean flu shots? You cannot hold the President accountable for flu shots going bad in the U.K. The gay issue: what two men or two women do in the privacy of their own home will not affect or harm me or any married couple or anyone else for that matter. People should mind their own business on personal issues like that and not let Big-Government (as the Republicans so often label it) control personal choice (including a woman’s choice). The U.S. constitution should never be amended in a discriminatory fashion, plain and simple. The republicans have tried consistently to politically divide our country and have avoided the real issues that affect us. The final question about the candidates' wives and daughters was so warm and fuzzy, but can we PLEASE stick to the major issues of the day here, and save fluff like that for when the candidates go back on Regis, Oprah, or that Dr. Phil fella?

We did not here about the issue of science or stem cell research in this debate. Is that because we know that Bush is on the short end of the stick on this major issue? The issue of the environment was not addressed AT ALL! Other then homeland security, which bleeds into economic security, job security, and health security, the environment is one of the most vital issues of this election, and it is being completely ignored and denigrated by the press and quite honestly by the politicians. What happened to the fact that the ruling political policy on our environment greatly affects the health and well-being of our citizens? What we do to our environment inevitably helps or harms our nation's legacy, our legacy that we leave for our children.

Sustaining our environment will help sustain our economy, sustain our national security, encourage ingenuity, and harness the clean energy the Earth provides us. As we design and develop new energy methods from our domestic environment, we declare independence from the foreign sources of fossil fuels, the Middle East, and therefore we strengthen our national security, and our economic security. We create a whole new market and industry, which will undoubtedly create new engineering, design, and drafting jobs to develop our new ideas. We create manufacturing jobs to build windmills, to build solar-powered vehicles, to build bio-diesel vehicles, to build hydrogen cars, and the like. We create jobs for installers, and we create jobs for maintenance workers. Being environmentally innovative and environmentally practical will fuel our nation’s progression into and throughout the twenty-first century.

The biggest lie any republican will tell you is that you have to choose between jobs and/or the environment. One is not antonymous from the other. Being pro-environment is being pro-job, pro-economic sustainability, pro-independence from foreign oil, and therefore pro-national security. Bush has provided his vision (or lack thereof) in terms of the environment, he’s anti-environment rationalized by supposedly being pro-job (and we know his record on jobs – worst president in 72 years). Bush favors the regressive approach of more drilling, including in our national preserves and B.L.M. lands, while Kerry has fought tirelessly in the Senate to protect our natural heritage, and seems very committed to our progress to a sustainable economy, sustainable energy, and being a true Earthian capitalist.

I will be so proud once John Kerry is our President; we have a lot to look forward to

41

r. frenzy

Please do some study into the one aspect of Hillary health care that made it into law - the Vaccines for Children Program in 1993. Like most liberal solutions, it sounds great and worked horribly.

THAT is why there is no profit for vaccine makers today and that is why you have watched so many leave the business over the last 10 years...

As in any case when the government takes over an aspect to the health care system...rationing will result.

42

I was surprised by the Cheney daughter comment, but even more surprising is that there is not more outrage about how Bush let Osama go, and admitted he didn't care...

BUSH CLAIMS: [paraphrase]: “I don’t think I ever said I’m not worried about Osama bin Laden. I think that’s one of those exaggerations.”

REALITY: Yes, he did. It’s not an exaggeration; Bush is lying:

Q But don't you believe that the threat that bin Laden posed won't truly be eliminated until he is found either dead or alive?

THE PRESIDENT: Well, as I say, we haven't heard much from him. And I wouldn't necessarily say he's at the center of any command structure. And, again, I don't know where he is. I -- I'll repeat what I said. I truly am not that concerned about him. I know he is on the run. I was concerned about him, when he had taken over a country. I was concerned about the fact that he was basically running Afghanistan and calling the shots for the Taliban. http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2002/03/20020313-8.html

43

Mark O. wrote, "The ethical questions regarding their use do not go away just because they are sitting around. A blastocyte, while still not human, is still (ethically/morally) different than a pig. It has the potential to become a human."

When is the "potential to be a human" realized? If the blastocyte is not human, what is it?

44

Gedi writes

"Having sex is a behavior. Having sex in a deviant manner is a behavior which should be regulated against."

Folks, do we know how to respond to people who have the intellects of uneducated ten year old children? It's not easy! We must first remember to write in simple direct sentences.

First, sexual preference is not a choice. Just yesterday I posted an article about a new research paper that provides additional solid evidence showing that homosexuality (like heterosexuality) has a significant genetic component. No serious scientists dispute the ever-growing mountain of evidence which supports this conclusion.

http://www.cnn.com/2004/TECH/science/10/13/homosexuality.study.reut/index.html

Second, Gedi, you seem to imply that granting marriage benefits to gay couples will somehow have an impact on the number of times that human beings engage in oral sex (e.g., cunnilingus) and/or anal stimulation. That claim is patently absurd and you should realize that when you make such claims you reveal yourself to be sadly naive about sex or pathologically afraid of it.

Gay people get married all the time and have been getting married for years, all over the country. The issue is government recognition of the marriage so that gay couples and their families (i.e., their children) receive the benefits that states and the Federal government have seen fit to grant heterosexual married people.

45

gedi,
If the blastocyte is not human, what is it?"

That is exactly my point. I don't have an answer.

I'm summarizing some of the arguments made by the BioEthics committee. Their conclusion was that a blastocyte while it may not be human, and it isn't exactly not human. Consider the attributes that separate us from the animal. Arguably you cannot ascribe them to a blastocyte in it's current state. However, each blastocyte has the potential to become a human, and as such, should be treated with respect. Kind of like pointing out that a mustard seed and a mustard tree are not the same thing.

46

A lot of you guys are going to be disappointed on November 3, including a handful I'm seeing today for the first time.

1. "REALITY:

Mergers, Not Lawsuits, To Blame for Lack of Vaccine Producing Companies. “Also, Bush blamed lawsuits for the shortage, but that's not the cause of frequent vaccine shortages, according to the Institute of Medicine, a division of the National Academy of Sciences. The problem is that vaccines aren't profitable and drug companies keep merging. In 1967, nearly 30 drug companies made vaccines. That was down to five last year, and of those only two make flu vaccines.” "

Duh. But it's lawsuits that makes the vaccines unprofitable. Think about it. Only two companies in the United States make a flu vaccine? Why? Couldn't have anything to do with trial lawyers, could it?

2. Yes, Kerry the pro-jobs, pro-high taxes, pro-Kyoto president. Grow the economy by raising taxes on small businesses!! Grow the economy by creating a system of trade credits for energy consumption, but exclude China and India from the treaty!! Let's all get jobs as forest rangers with free health care, and save Social Security until 2075, and cut the deficits in half, all with the $89 billion in tax cuts we're rolling back!!

Most Americans, I hope, will see through all this BS, and flip the lever for "Anyone But Kerry"

47

" All day I have heard gay people comment about how THEY were outraged, because even though they too are publically "out" they still desire privacy from the general public"

Where are these outraged gay people? How come I didn't hear any outrage from them in the previous thousand times that Mary Cheney's gayness was mentioned in the press and on TV (including by her father)?

Odd. It's almost as if the Republicans were desperately trying to make an issue of this nonsense because they realize that they are going to lose this election "big time."

And when they do: you can bet that my gay friends are going to be very happy indeed!! So long Ashcroft, you constitution-trashing scumbag!!!!!

48

"Folks, do we know how to respond to people who have the intellects of uneducated ten year old children? It's not easy! We must first remember to write in simple direct sentences."

You are right. I am the product of the public school systems of the United States of America.

"First, sexual preference is not a choice."

I don't care to argue this with you as this time. Even assuming it is true, having sex is a choice with the glaring exception of rape. My family is predisposed to addictions. Alcoholism, gambling, etc. run rampant. I do not gamble or imbibe alcohol to excess because I know that I am predisposed to such destructive behavior.

"Second, Gedi, you seem to imply that granting marriage benefits to gay couples will somehow have an impact on the number of times that human beings engage in oral sex (e.g., cunnilingus) and/or anal stimulation. That claim is patently absurd and you should realize that when you make such claims you reveal yourself to be sadly naive about sex or pathologically afraid of it."

That is patently absurd. I am so glad that I didn't say it.

"Gay people get married all the time and have been getting married for years, all over the country. The issue is government recognition of the marriage so that gay couples and their families (i.e., their children) receive the benefits that states and the Federal government have seen fit to grant heterosexual married people."

Not in my state. Odds are, not in your either. The issue is, as you state, government recognition, or lack thereof. Let us give thanks for President Bush and his support for a marriage amendment granting such recognition.

49

Addendum: Last statement should read, "Let us give thanks for President Bush and his support for a marriage amendment refusing such recognition."

Ten year olds and their computers... *sigh*

50

Where are these outraged gay people? How come I didn't hear any outrage from them in the previous thousand times that Mary Cheney's gayness was mentioned in the press and on TV (including by her father)?

Odd. It's almost as if the Republicans were desperately trying to make an issue of this nonsense because they realize that they are going to lose this election "big time."