1

I would love to have heard Stephen King's opinion. I have a feeling he falls on the left, but he is often under-appreciated for his brilliance and breadth of commentary in his novels, though pot-boilers they be.

2

I visit this blog from time to time as an interested European wishing to learn about Evangelical Christianity in the US. I’ve learnt a lot. The author appears to regard the promotion of the Republican Party and its presidential candidate, as a matter deeply connected to his faith. God apparently wants you to vote GOP.

That I’ve read little or nothing concerning the Gospels, or the teachings of Jesus Christ, speaks for itself.

3

I wonder if Christ would even vote if he lived in, say, Ohio. If he did he would probably vote for Nader who is anti-war, in favor of uplifting the poor and those without insurance, etc... Incidentally, a vote for Kerry is not a vote FOR abortion. Individuals will chose to have abortions whether they are legal or not.

4

Yeah the pro-bush camp is small and consisted of Orson Scott Card, Robert Ferrigno, Thomas Mallon, and Roger L. Simon. All of them are voting Bush because of a strong war stance, even though Card and Simon are registered Democrats.

As for Steve's comment, he is unfortunately correct. The evangelical blogosphere is doing a piss poor job of communicating Christ right now. We are making the mistake of the Ephesian Church and forgetting our first love while standing up for our principles. Honestly, we evangelicals need to really examine where we are and re-engage society with some decent apologetics.

JB, somehow I doubt Jesus would be for forced redistribution of wealth in any form. The early church practices communism with a small "c", people donated to fill the churches needs. They were not forcibly taxed. The story of Annias and Saphira in Acts is an example of how giving with the wrong motives is worthless before God even if the money may go to help people. I think if anything, Christ would be doing what he always did, telling people to act according to your conscience in a way that is right before God.

Similarly the idea the Jesus would oppose war is pretty baseless considering God's stances on War in the Old Testament (or Revelations). He really doesn't have a problem with it. I'm sure Jesus understood war to be a terrible thing and a last resort, but he was enough of a realist to know that it was sometimes necessary. In the end I think he would ask us to judge the war on the basis of the fruit it is yielding, but it is probably too early to do that yet.

5

Jeff makes a good point. I hope that after the election we can all calm down a bit and do more to talk on the Gospels.

6

JB,
You argue, a vote for Kerry is not a vote *for* abortion.

However, *Kerry* did argue in his last debate in favor of federal subsidies to make abortion available to the "poor". Sound's like "for" to me.

7

I'm pretty sure I know how Tom Clancy will vote.

8

Steve I visit this blog from time to time as an interested European wishing to learn about Evangelical Christianity in the US. I’ve learnt a lot. The author appears to regard the promotion of the Republican Party and its presidential candidate, as a matter deeply connected to his faith. God apparently wants you to vote GOP.

You bring up an interesting point. I do talk about politics quite often for two reasons: because we are in a world war against one of the greatest evils in history and because the most significant moral issues since slavery hinges on the next election. American evangelicals are often derided for not speaking out about social justice yet when I do so (and yes, freeing people from tyranny and protecting the unborn from death falls under “social justice”) it is dismissed as partisan politics. I don’t know if God wants people to vote for the GOP but I do know that he expects us to take a stand against evil.

That I’ve read little or nothing concerning the Gospels, or the teachings of Jesus Christ, speaks for itself.

Obviously, you aren’t reading closely enough. My writings are often deeply motivated by trying to express what I think Christ teaches. While I may be wrong I am making a valid attempt to apply his teachings to the realm of public policy.

JB As for Steve's comment, he is unfortunately correct. The evangelical blogosphere is doing a piss poor job of communicating Christ right now. We are making the mistake of the Ephesian Church and forgetting our first love while standing up for our principles. Honestly, we evangelicals need to really examine where we are and re-engage society with some decent apologetics.

I think you have a point. But the reason we are being accused of doing a “piss poor job” is often exactly because we stand for our principles. Politics, of course, isn’t everything. But this upcoming election has a lot of moral implications and I think we would be remiss in our duties if we don’t take a stand for the Kingdom

Mark: However, *Kerry* did argue in his last debate in favor of federal subsidies to make abortion available to the "poor". Sound's like "for" to me.

Mark is right. A vote for Kerry is a vote for abortion. Unfortunately, the parties have divided themselves on this issue to the point where you almost never have the option to vote for a pro-life candidate but must vote for who is less for abortion.

9

'But this upcoming election has a lot of moral implications and I think we would be remiss in our duties if we don’t take a stand for the Kingdom'

unfortunately, for christians, guns, gays, and abortion are the the only moral implications they can see. not the 1000 dead americans and the 15 thousand dead iraqis.

10

'I'm pretty sure I know how Tom Clancy will vote.'

good you are not really sure:

Clancy said that voting for Sen. John Kerry, the Democrats’ presumptive nominee, would be “a stretch for me,” but wouldn’t say that he was supporting Bush.'

from 'Author Tom Clancy criticizes Iraq war'

full article: http://msnbc.msn.com/id/5053682/

11

Joe – As I indicated I am an irregular visitor to your site, and you may be very sincere in “trying to express what I think Christ teaches”. This does rather beg the question: where then are the references to Christ’s teachings?

Word count in current ‘The Evangelical Outpost’ (including ads):
‘Kerry’ 18,
‘Bush’ 13,
‘Vote’ 7,
‘Jesus’ 1,
‘Christ’ 1,
‘Bible’ 1
‘Scripture’ 0
‘Gospel’ 0

12

Steve:

Writing as a reader of Joes Blog; The content here tends towards Evangelicals discussing world events. Since we are three weeks from a major election, this is a hot topic. The bible doesn't doesn't tell us much about how to engage in democracy, its seems to me sometimes as a guide book in how to live as oppressed people (the new testament anyway). So you won't find as many scripture quotations as you might during other seasons.

You are probably also aware that quoting scripture as a debating tactic is a big turn off to a lot of folks, especially in politics. You can't use the bible as an authority with people who don't find authoritative. Evangelicals have had to learn to couch arguments in a non-sectarian or even secular way, in order to avoid having ones argument being dismissed out of hand.

I appreciate your comments Steve. Keep reading and writing comments. I would be interested in hearing more about you, your thoughts and your interest in american evangelicals.

13

"Not the 1000 dead americans and the 15 thousand dead iraqis." Does your candidate have a proposal to make men immortal? The issue is not whether men are dying because we are all dying. The issue is the worth of what they are dying for. These people are dying to open up a whole region to freedom, which will likely include religious freedom and the spread of the gospel. I don't think Christ would necessarily be against that.

"But the reason we are being accused of doing a 'piss poor job' is often exactly because we stand for our principles." True the world will hate us for what we do, but are we really standing for our core principles? I have heard the religious right talk about gays and abortion until they are blue in the face. Where is the love of christ? The hope of the Savior? Shouldn't that be the most important thing?

The reason we are in the spot we are in socially, is because we have given up the fight for the soul of our culture. So instead we fight on the fringes of relative morality just like everybody else. The more I see the current gen-Y kids, the more I see a hopeless and cynical generation. We have what they need, but we fight on about sex and stem cells instead of bringing them Christ. Bring the children the hope their parents have forgotten and we will change the world.

14

Steve This does rather beg the question: where then are the references to Christ’s teachings?

I see your point and I think the problem is that we have a different view of methodology. If I were to constantly resort to “the Bible claims…” or “Jesus teaches…” it would be completely ineffective. This blog isn’t a church service and the readers are not all Christians. Rather than parrot scripture and provide footnotes to the Biblical text I believe my role is to communicate Biblical principles in a way that others can understand.

The reason that you can count more “Kerrys” and “Bushs” is the same reason that you don’t see “Joe Carter” woven in to every post. Christ and scripture are the very foundation of my being and if I have to constantly call attention to that fact then I am doing something wrong. For me, the issues I choose to defend and the way I interact with others says more about Christ than merely name-dropping him into my posts.

I will say that after the election, though, there will be more of an emphasis on theo-blogging. If you’re interested you may want to check out the category archives for some of what I’ve written on religious topics in the past.

15

'These people are dying to open up a whole region to freedom, which will likely include religious freedom and the spread of the gospel. I don't think Christ would necessarily be against that.'

and why do you think he would necessarily be for it?

nothing like an ar-15 to spread the 'gospel.'

16

It might also be of use to do word counts on a couple of other sites: Judges, Exodus, Proverbs, etc. You could pick any number of books of the Bible, pick a three chapter section, and find almost nothing about God (i.e. a lot of laws and wars)--and the Bible was written by the Big Man himself. Joe posts a great deal about the Gospel and about Christ. He also musters the intellectual courage to assert that God would not be indifferent to wordly (and often, political) affairs. As I remember, Lincoln, Wilberforce, and Wesley all had similar beliefs (not to mention King, Mother Theresa, and the most altruistically political and religiously conservative Pope in recent memory, JPII).

To think that issues like abortion, intervention in Sudan, and liberation in Iraq are not "Christian" issues is to belittle the providence of God in our daily lives. Additionally, while Joe's current posts revolve around the election and around Iraq, many of his previous front pages would have been plastered with posts concerning creationism, evangelical movements, and the path to salvation.

Granted, evangelicals tend more toward the "City of Man" than the "City of God" on occassion--but criticizing this site in partciular seems a little foolhardy to me. Great job Joe.

17

Steve seems to want to apply a JPM scale (Jesus Per Minute) to determine the "sacredness" of the discussion. This is an odd reversal, because, having been involved with Christian music, I always noticed that European Christians were far less averse to "secular" music and chided Americans for applying a JPM scale. All truth is God's truth, and I don't think Joe needs to quote chapter and verse every time he's talking about a subject not directly related to scripture.

18

Oops! I didn't sign my last one, but the JPM post was by me.

I also wanted to point out to Steve, who has that very common European incredulousness that Americans would vote for someone Kofi Annan has not given them permission to, the answers to why American evangelicals shy away from Leftist politicians may be less insidious than you think. I remember Joe posted some pretty good discussion/links on that a little while back. I don't have time to go digging, but perhaps a pointer to it would help our friend Steve.

19

J.J. , John:

I think you being too hard on steve, and imputing a lot positions on him he has not declared (at least on this thread, perhaps he has on other topics?). I would be quite interested to learn about his perceptions of American Evangelicals.

BTW Joe: I thought your response to Steve was very thoughtful

20

"Granted, evangelicals tend more toward the "City of Man" than the "City of God" on occassion--but criticizing this site in partciular seems a little foolhardy to me. Great job Joe."

Sorry I hope I didn't come off as criticizing Joe in particular. I like this site and others like it. If you did the Jesus count on my blog I'm sure I would not fare well either.

I just think that we as evangelicals and evangelical bloggers need to do better. I think as a group we are fighting the symptoms instead of publicizing the cure. What we really need is good modern apologetics, but I don't hear much about that. We're too busy opposing the culture to effectively engage it for Christ.

21

"That I’ve read little or nothing concerning the Gospels, or the teachings of Jesus Christ, speaks for itself." -- That's a pretty judgemental statement, so I'll stick by my statement that Joe was being judged on a JPM scale. However, I'd like to sincerely apologize to Steve because in my haste I somehow deleted the word "apparently", as in "*apparently* has the very common European incredulousness...". Steve, if I imputed anything to you there, I was wrong. I admit that I have a knee-jerk reaction to Europeans who criticize American evangelicals for how they vote, and yet are standing there with Karl Marx's brown stuff on their nose.

By the way, it may be a comfort to some of those same Euro-socialists that I'm an American evangelical who won't be voting for Bush. On the other hand, maybe not because I'm voting for Michael Badnarik, the Libertarian candidate, because I believe that Bush, like Kerry, is pushing us toward Euro-style strong, centralized, socialist, globalist government, albeit more slowly.

22

My apologies if I came off a little too strong. I was simply hoping to point out that I do not believe the "You are not mentioning God enough in relation to John Kerry" criticism is fair in Joe's case. IT was meant to demonstrate my appreciation for the quality of this site, primarily.

23

Joe: I just had to comment that your responses to Steve were well versed. I don't respond much to this blog but I read it on a daily basis and have been impressed with the humble (yet firm) way you handle a lot of these hot heads who like to stir up the controversy. (not saying that Steve is one of those "hot heads" -- it's mostly the liberals i'm referring to).

And I think this following statement was a profound one:
"I do talk about politics quite often for two reasons: because we are in a world war against one of the greatest evils in history and because the most significant moral issues since slavery hinges on the next election."

This may sound a bit over the top for you (being a Baptist and all), but I think one of the main reasons that people are so easily riled up over this election and that there is a significant amount of hatred being directed at Bush is because there's a serious spiritual battle going on. The enemy has one goal in mind...to kill, steal and destroy. He knows better than most that his job will be a lot easier with someone like Kerry in office. Notice I said, "like". Kerry is not the bad guy. He's more likely to be manipulated however and that's what scares me.

24

'The enemy has one goal in mind...to kill, steal and destroy.'

funny that the saviors are doing the stealing and destroying. better that the christians look for the log in their own eye, and their government's eye, than looking for some bogeyman like kerry to blame.