1

"as long as LaHaye can continue to sell books by the truckload, he’ll continue to be a force to be reckoned with."

Ain't that the truth.

2

Left Behind: The Kids?????

This sounds like it could get very sick very fast.

Is there anything to Christian fiction other than a "Here Comes the Antichrist!" End-time Prophecy Conspiracy/Paranoia trip?

I'm approaching 50 and the scars are still there from all the End Time Prophecy Paranoia I went through in Hal Lindsay's heyday in the Seventies.

3

Lawhead... pendragon cycle, some sci-fi and fantasy stuff.... that's about the only contemporary Christian fiction I've read, and it was a while ago. It appealed to a kid in junior high. I don't know how much merit is work actually has.

4

Now isn't this interesting. When you highlighted T.D. Jakes, everybody had a conniption fit, but no one has anything to say about many of Tim LaHaye's unBiblical depictions of the end-times?

Typical.

5

Ken,
C.S. Lewis "Chronicles of Narnia" are Christian allegory, only the last book is eschatalogical. His Perelandra trilogy (?) was a sci-fi christian allegory but I haven't personally read it. Also, "The ScrewTape Letters" which are a story of a minor demon being coached in temptation by his elders is another. Like Brandon I read it when I was in High School, and don't recall it in great detail. "Pligrims Regress" was another by Lewis.

Going back a bit, Mallory's "Le Morte Darthur" and Milton "Paradise Lost/Regained".

G.K. Chesterton's Father Brown mysteries. Penguin has a the "compleat series" in one volume.

Louis de Wohl writes biographies of Saints. I've only read part of one (Aquinas).

Any more?

6

Typical of what Ambra? Are you throwing down the race card? Based on my skimming of the critical comments on the T.D. Jakes page, it seems he is far afield of orthodox Christianity, vis a vis his denial of the Trinity. I don't know that I buy into LaHaye's dispensationalism but a disagreement about eschatology is hardly on par with a disagrement about the nature of God.

Plenty of Christians have critiqued white preachers who abuse the Gospel, i.e Paul and Jan Crouch of TBN or Fred Phelps of Westboro Baptist Church. Do black preachers get a free pass? Are they above reproach? Christians must call out any who abuse the Word, white or black.

7

Twenty-six years ago, I was a young Christian, accepting Jesus in my second year in the Air Force, in MT Home, Idaho--there I was, first time in a Christian book store and the so-called apocalyptic end time books seemed to speak out to me...I closed in, about to take one up, when a fellow-Air Force friend (who was discipling me) said, "Learn your Bible first." I am forever thankful for that moment. The second chapter in God's school came when I asked my pastor about the rapture and the end of time. He gave me Mat 24, Luke 21, and Mark 13 as references and said, "Study them on your own first, and you tell me what you hear in the text." Again, I am so grateful for that advise. In fact...it is still good advice...learn the Bible first...LaHaye's version of the end of the world is a far cry from what the Bible actually says. (Only in modern America!) His popularity is only among a certain type of Christian communities. I wonder how popular his books are in China, Russia, or anywhere else Christians are actually persecuted for their faith and martyred for faithfulness?

8

MarkO:

I have read Lewis, I have read Tolkien, and I scored a complete collection of Father Brown once when I was between jobs. Plus, Cordwainer Smith (ever heard of him?)

Have you noticed that the latest of all those Christian Fiction examples you presented were pre-1960? (Some of them -- like Morte d'Arthur -- way before.)

Back during my days in the Christian fever swamp, when I mentioned SF, they always cited the same example: Lewis's Space Trilogy.

My response was "Lewis died in 1963. He wrote those in the Forties and Fifties. If nothing of note has been written since in the genre, that's nothing to brag about."

Chip:

My introduction to the Bible was Daniel, Revelation, and the "Nuclear War Chapter" of Ezekiel after a "turn or burn" altar call back around 1973. As far as my mentors were concerned, the other 64 3/4 books may as well never have existed. (Justified by the belief that "TIME IS SO SHORT! WE MIGHT NOT HAVE A 1975, OR EVEN A 1974!!!!!! IT'S ALL GONNA BURN!!!!!"

9

Arthur,

Most people have written off Jakes' theology on the basis of second-hand knowledge or something they read by Hank Hannegraff, hardly a trusted source if you ask me. Few have actually read what exactly his doctrine is. And yes, Jakes has roots in the oneness Pentecostal church, but the man is not going around specifically preaching against the Trinity (a word which by the way isn't even in the Bible). So yes, accroding to his doctrinal statement on his website, Jakes is by no means a Trinitarian. But I think more than anything, if you read more and get a better understanding, it's a debate on terms, not solely the nature of God. But I won't argue that point cuz that's not the issue here...

My point was that Joe's theme here is "Know Your Evangelicals". Thus far, there are theological issues I can debate with every last one of the "evangelicals" Joe's posted. Some so much so that I can't stomach their philosophies. That doesn't take away from the fact that I should know who they are. And as far as I'm concerned, dispensationalism isn't Biblical so what makes La haye less conniption fit worthy?

Well, call it as you may, but there's a knee-jerk reaction to certain types in the body of Christ. My argument was simply that people are inconsistent in their complaints. People got all bent and disappointed when Joe posted TD Jakes, so why not here?

As much as La Haye bothers me, I'm fine with him being listed as this is about knowing who's out there. Just thought I'd bring some observations to the table.

10

Ken,
Good point on the dates. I guess Tim LaHaye and dare I say Mel Gibson have pointed out that there *is* certainly a market for it, so if ya can write, put pen & ink to paper and they beat a path to your door.

I have heard of Cordwainer, I don't recall reading any. I'll scratch my head a while and see if I can think of any others I might have come across.

Arthur,
Your comment is in line with today's blog by Mark Roberts (http://www.markdroberts.com/#oct404).

11

I've read all the Left Behind books, and liked 'em, even though I'm not at all into the whole rapture/trib thing. It's just nice to read a decent adventure yarn occasionally where my guys win in the end. And the cool question of the very first book (the series could have been done at 3 or 4 easily, and 12 was way over the top) was, "if there were such a thing as the rapture, would I be in it?" That's worth all of us asking ourselves. But there has been some really good relatively recent Christian fiction, far better than LaHaye. Frank Perretti's books come to mind, especially This Present Darkness. Of course, nothing beats Lewis.

12

Fair enough Ambra. I know virtually nothing about TD Jakes. The only evangelical I agree with 100% is myself (Mohler is the closest on Joe's list). My concern was the apparent knee jerk reaction to criticism of Jakes versus the lack (so far) towards LaHaye.

13

Mark O,

Thanks for the tip. I haven't come across Mark Roberts before but the series looks interesting, I will check it out...

14

Hello-anyone who wants to read some non-apocalyptic,somewhat topical, though not poltical Christian novels, should go look at the website of a friend of mine-

His name is Lars Walker, and his site is http://www.larswalker.com.

Oh, and he publishes through Baen books, a fairly large publisher, so you can always check the bookstore too-I recommend Blood and Judgement and Wolf Time.

15

Oops. As for Lahaye, I thought LB was fun escapist fare that was a little south of Grisham in quality. I have some disputes with him, but he's brought some medium-good publicity to the faith, and reaches many people, so I guess I'll keep him...

16

Ken asked:

Is there anything to Christian fiction other than a "Here Comes the Antichrist!" End-time Prophecy Conspiracy/Paranoia trip?

Yeah. Historical romances!

17

Joe,

(For Ambra's sake)--Goodness gracious, couldn't you have just gone straight to McGrath and skipped LaHaye? Virtually nobody knows McGrath and everybody knows LaHaye and Jenkins. LaHaye, much like Robertson and Falwell, continues to make Christians look like boobs to outsiders.

Ambra,

Now that we have that out of the way, we need to talk.

First, please feel free to find one (just one, now, I'm not asking for a novel) thing that Hank Hanegraaf has ever written that cannot be supported by a common-sense reading of the Bible. Feel free to post it here or in the comments on my site. (See the link at my name below.)

Second, you say that "Jakes has roots in the oneness Pentecostal church, but the man is not going around specifically preaching against the Trinity (a word which by the way isn't even in the Bible)." Then you say "yes, according to his doctrinal statement on his website, Jakes is by no means a Trinitarian." By not being a Trinitarian (which all orthodox Christians from the first century on have been) Jakes is ipso facto "preaching against the Trinity".

Finally, there's this: "the Trinity (a word which by the way isn't even in the Bible)." That is true, but these are from the Bible:

"Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one." Dt. 6:4
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. . . .The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth." John 1
"Exalted to the right hand of God, he has received from the Father the promised Holy Spirit and has poured out what you now see and hear." Acts 2:33
"We are witnesses of these things, and so is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey him." Acts 5:32
"And hope does not disappoint us, because God has poured out his love into our hearts by the Holy Spirit, whom he has given us." Romans 5:5

Now, what these passages tell us is this: God is one in substance (hence the Deuteronomy passages) but that He reveals himself to us in three distinct persons, the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. We describe this, as a label only, the doctrine of the Trinity. The label "Trinity" is not in the Bible but describes what the Bible describes. So, it is no proof against the doctrine that the word "Trinity" is not in the Bible. The word monotheistic is not in the Bible either. However, Christianity is a monotheistic religion--that word, too, is a label.

Ambra, When you start to think that a doctrine that has been a cornerstone of the Church from the time of Christ on is not really correct, you must, must ask yourself: Who is wrong, 2000+ years of Church teaching and history, or Ambra? The Doctrine of the Trinity is not some new thing that Hank Hanegraaf or the Pope just made up. It's an accurate and ancient description of our Lord.

God Bless,
Mark

18

Mark S.,

(For Ambra's sake)--Goodness gracious, couldn't you have just gone straight to McGrath and skipped LaHaye? Virtually nobody knows McGrath and everybody knows LaHaye and Jenkins.

You have to keep in mind that this is aimed at a non-evangelical audience as well. Many people have seen his name on a book cover but know nothing about him.

I'll admit, though, that it's tempting to just stick to the evangelicals that I personally admire. But I think its more useful to show the full spectrum, warts and all. (Except there will be no inclusion of Falwell and Robertson. I have to draw the line somewhere.)

19

Joe,

Point taken. I think we have proved to Ambra, though, that the barbs are not reserved solely for Bishop Jakes.

Mark

20

If the best message the Christian leaders of the time can offer us spiritually, is the hope of a Hale bop, or maybe better said, a Hal(Lindsey) bop, disappearing act, then its time for new leaders. Leaders who will face the cultural giants of spiritual darkness. The Church's worped understanding of eschatology has created a retreatest, defeatest mentality! What long term serious goals can be made, with an eminent return of Christ mindset? At best, having such a belief effects the subconscience, giving only hopes to get by, and polish the brass on the titanic. Such a pessimistic world view is no different from the spies who believed the evil report, that there were giants in the land. Those who believed saw giant grapes of opportunity, and the need to immediately slay the giants and take the land. Why is the Christian Church so effeminate, and getting its butt kicked for forty years in the cultural war? One word, ESCHETOLOGY!!!

21

Just for the record, Jerry Jenkins wrote these books. Tim LaHaye has his name on them because he helped come up with the idea and the publishers thought it would sell more books.

I'm surprised you didn't even mention LaHaye's influential and popular Christian temperament/personality stuff. That's the only decent stuff he's ever published, though it's not as sophisticated or helpful as more nuanced perspectives like Keirsey-Bates. His wife has done more than he has with this stuff, but he's been a major part of it.

I didn't know he was involved with the ICR. That doesn't surprise me. Like attracts like.

22

Mark,

Thanks for the attempt at a theology lesson, but that's not really the issue at hand.

It amazes me how many people feel the need to prove their theological aptitude on the web. Really.

In any case, Joe I support this series, no matter who you highlight. If nothing else, this is about knowing who's who.

And for the record, disregarding the topic at hand, 2,000 years of church history (at the hands of fallible humans by the way) is not without setbacks. We should be walking in way more revelation today than yesterday, so let's not get stuck on that argument as a basis to prove doctrine please.

23

Ambra,

Bishop Jakes, Hanegraaf and Oneness Pentecostalism were all brought to the discussion by you, not me.

Also, I don't use tradition to "prove" doctrine. In the case at hand, I pointed to the Bible. I do think, however, that tradition is useful as an indicator of when a person might be getting into a danger area. That is as applicable to me as to any other Follower of Christ.

I know I'm in danger of getting off-topic again, but could you explain to me what "walking in way more revelation today than yesterday" means?

God Bless,
Mark

24

Oh, Fred Saberhagen's a Christian, who is also an author, and slips in references and whatnot pretty regularly-he wrote the Berserker series, and is definetely at bookstores... does anyone care about the modern Christian fiction thing anymore, or did it get eaten?

25

Ambra sez...

>>>We should be walking in way more revelation today than yesterday, so let's not get stuck on that argument as a basis to prove doctrine please.

26

The analysis is great -- as far as it goes -- but I think it's unfair to confine criticism of LaHaye's politics to the "secular left."

In the 1980s, I recall (as a former CWFA member/subscriber in college) that both LaHayes used CWFA to support the Nicaraguan contra-terrorists, the El Salvadoran death squad party ARENA, and the apartheid regime of South Africa. Jews and Christians outside the religious right found such standpoints monstrous.

I haven't followed Tim LaHaye's personal politics since then, but the extremism and verbal venom of CWFA and Robert Knight regularly come under fire from Jews and Christians. And those same Jews and Christians value the religious freedom that comes from the separation of church and state. They value not being forced by the government to heed the theology of the crazies at CWFA and CNP.

A lot of this is admittedly my gut reaction; it would be great if someone could eventually add some links to LaHaye's specific political ideologies/heresies -- and to the Jews and Christians battling to protect their own freedoms from him.

I would be especially curious to know what Archbishop Desmond Tutu thinks of him -- and what Archbishop Oscar Romero would think, if he were alive today.

27

Anybody read Leif Enger's Peace Like a River? A good tale told lyrically and with spiritual insight.

28

Those are pretty strong charges Mike. Can you substantiate any of it? Anything other than "gut reactions" or "recalling from college"?

29

Arthur,

Actually, yes, I am gathering several links and will substantiate later. I was hoping someone else would know of links or books, however. First-hand information from pre-Internet days is hard to obtain online.

30

I don't have the evidence either. But I do remember seeing the same comments recently, either in Touchstone or Christianity Today. When I read it, it seemed pretty established as fact--old news even.

Mark S.

31

I'm sorry, I meant to say that I might have seen the information in Touchstone or CT; one of those would be most likely, but I'm not certain.

Mark S.

32

Fair enough. I look forward to checking into the information on LaHaye. I am not a big fan of his either but I am more interested in the facts about him than what Desmond Tutu thinks.

As far as this comment...

>>>the extremism and verbal venom of CWFA and Robert Knight regularly come under fire from Jews and Christians. And those same Jews and Christians value the religious freedom that comes from the separation of church and state. They value not being forced by the government to heed the theology of the crazies at CWFA and CNP.

33

When I read about the popularity of Le Hay's work, it makes me think that many christians are christians for purely selfish reasons. Any good they do is to avoid hell and get the prize of heaven and hanging out with jesus for eternity--i understand that those are HUGE things in their eyes, but it makes me distrustful of these types. I help people not becuase i think i am going to be rewarded for it one day. I do it because something deep inside me tells me that that's why i am here on earth.
I know some people who help others so they can try to convert them to christianity, thereby insuring the converter's place in heaven. I also know people who put their lives in danger to help others because it makes them feel good to know this other person is getting help.
I know you could say that both of these people are selfish--doing it b/c it feels good or b/c it will get you a heavenly reward might not be much different. but, they thier motivations just feel different to me.
if someone offered to help you carry a heavy package and you later found out they did it b/c they were offered ten bucks by someone else and another person offered to help you and got nothing but a good feeling in return, i think you might think more highly of the second person. I son't think all this end-times focus is healthy and it makes many christians look like the they only do good so that they can get a reward.

34

SAmmy,

You may be right, to a degree, that some (perhaps many) Christians are in it for the ends. I'm not sure how much a person's view on eschatology matters in that regard. An amillenialist would still believe in some end to history as we know it. Also, as Joe mentioned in his post on eschatology a week or so ago, the majority of Christians worldwide do not ascribe to the dispensationalism of the LaHaye-Jenkins books (although that doesn't stop them from buying the books--I'll confess to having the whole series except the last one--but I didn't enjoy it, really).

It's also a bit difficult, I think, to get into someone's psychology as to why they help others. Ultimately, it can be reduced to absurdity in anybody's case, even yours: You help people because it gives you a good feeling, hence you are doing it for selfish reasons, just like those who are doing it to get to Heaven. So, I would generally not put much emphasis on that argument.

Also, there are not too many Christians who ascribe to the belief that you need to convert others to get to Heaven--it's not based on your works but your faith in Jesus. Certainly, Jesus calls us to make disciples (which is a much higher calling than making converts), but that is not how one gets to Heaven. We do good works out of love for others and obedience to God.

God Bless,
Mark S.

35

CWFA's Peter LaBarbera (since departed) promoted the contras as "freedom fighters" last year. He also put in a good word for Reagan's support of the far-right Salvadoran government, calling it a "democracy":
http://www.cwfa.org/printerfriendly.asp?id=3578

Tim LaHaye was a co-founder and head of the Council for National Policy in the early 1980s. Some of its affiliates supported both the contras and El Salvador's Roberto d'Aubuisson and the ARENA party, both of which helped orchestrate the death squads.
http://www.seekgod.ca/cnporganizations.htm
http://www.seekgod.ca/topiccnp.htm

Beverly LaHaye worked with Pat Robertson to promote aid to Guatemala's genocidal dictator, Rios Montt in 1982. Tim LaHaye, Robertson and others at CNP hosted contra leader Adolfo Calero in 1984. Beverly supported Roberton's candidacy for President of the U.S. at a time when he was promoting the apartheid regime in South Africa; Roberto d'Aubuisson in El Salvador; and diversions of "humanitarian" aid from "Operation Blessing" to the contras.
http://rightweb.irc-online.org/groupwatch/cbn.php

Tim LaHaye was paid chairman for Sun Myung Moon's "Coalition for Religious Freedom," during which LaHaye pretended ignorance of the Unification Church cult and Moon's insistence that he is the Messiah.
http://watch.pair.com/database1.html

Several CNP officers and members, and Moon's Washington Times, were allegedly employed and/or paid by South Africa to promote apartheid.
http://watch.pair.com/database.html

More Google hits on CWFA and the contras:
http://www.google.com/search?q=%22concerned+women+for+america%22+nicaragua+contras

Lots of criticism of the LaHayes at Political Research Associates:
http://www.publiceye.org/cgi-bin/htsearch?restrict=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.publiceye.org%2F;words=lahaye

A Christian take on the human rights violations of the LaHayes and CNP:
http://www.antipasministries.com/oldnews/kingdom.html

Out of time here. More later, if people are still reading this page.

36

LaHaye's degrees struck me as strange. Western is a fairly mainline RCA seminary, miles from LaHaye theologically. The Liberty degree has to be honorary (outside of America there are legitimate D.Litt. degrees offered, but all from American insitutitons are honorary that I know of), and it's strange how many sites list the two degrees as if they were parallel, earned degrees. Barnes and Noble's author page lists Lahaye as having a BA from Bob Jones and a D. Min. from Western Baptist Seminary, a much more likely school for LaHaye that WTS (http://www.barnesandnoble.com/writers/writer.asp?cid=968101)
Western Baptist's D.Min. requires a M.Div. for admission, however, and I can't find any indication that LaHaye has earned one, so perhaps that degree is honorary as well.

37

Joe: Also, it might be worth adding that the Evanglical Studies Bulletin (a publication of the Institute for the Study of American Evangelicals, based at Wheaton College - it's an academic society of those who study evangelicalism, but are not necessarily evangelicals themselves, though many are) chose LaHaye as the most influential American evangelical leader in the last quarter of the 20th century. It's not online, but the issue reference is here:
http://www.wheaton.edu/isae/ESB_past.html#winter01

I think they're right, incidentally, which is one of the reasons I sometimes avoid the label "evangelical."

38

And lastly, whatever the point of the comparison to Jakes is, the comparison is ridiculous. I think LaHaye's end times views are nutty, but but that makes him a nutty Christian. When the issue is denying the Trinity, we're talking about a different god altogether, whether Mormon, Unitarian, or TDJakesian. Jakes's influence is undeniable, however, which is another reason I wince at the term "evangelical."

39

I am not a huge student of the Contra-Sandanista violence, but I do find it laughable that you cast stones at the Contras and ignore the genoicidal tendencies of the Marxist Sandanista regime. Random Google searches on a topic are sure to bring up every crackpot conspriacy theorist with a webpage. Try searching for "Vince Foster" and see how many hits you get claiming he was murdered by Hillary to cover up an affair. Being posted on the web doesn't make something true. Your one link to www.publiceye.org leads to a webpage with the following stated purpose:

>>>Founded in 1981, Political Research Associates serves as the premier national organization addressing the full spectrum of the US political Right - from the right-wing in the electoral arena to paramilitary organizations. PRA works to facilitate public understanding of the threat posed to democratic values and principles by the Right in the United States. Through our research and publications and as a national resource and support center for activists, journalists and others, PRA helps to build the movement for progressive social change.