1

Part of Kerry's problem is that it is very hard to take him seriously as a man. Real men, especially sixty year old men do not use Botox or tanning cream. Real men don't blame falling on the ski slope on the guy who gets paid to take a bullet for you. If the media really reported on this kind of stuff, Kerry would be lucky to get 33% of the vote. He is simply an unserious man in a serious time.

2

What does a 60-year-old man from Massachusetts have a suntan for anyway? Unless he's a construction worker, most Yanks I know are pasty, white, and chunky.

3

Thanks, Rob, for doing your part to contributing to the fallen discourse that is destroying our Democracy!

And please realize, Joe, that the Daily Show is much more about the news media and its diseased state than it is about politics per se. To the extent people like Drudge and others engage in baloney Seinfeld-esque discussions relating to the future leader of the free world, those are just symptoms of the illness. In summary, you just stepped in it.

4

Thanks, Rob, for doing your part to contributing to the fallen discourse that is destroying our Democracy!

What a load of crap. Democracy is being destroyed because I don't care about or agree with what Larry Lord thinks is important. Think we're rather important don't we, Larry. You remind me of myself when I was a teenager, I thought I knew everything and whoever didn't agree with me "just didn't get it." Then a funny thing happened, I got older, got married, had kids, got a real job, and you know what I found? I don't know everything (just ask my wife). Don't want to burst your bubble little dude, but you are not the center of universe, stop acting like you think you are. You will sound a lot more intelligent.

5

Rob writes

"Democracy is being destroyed because I don't care about or agree with what Larry Lord thinks is important."

Um, Rob, those are your words. Not mine. I'm sorry if you feel that your thoughts on Kerry's skin tone are relevant to his qualifications to lead this country. I'm sure we'll be having a similarly irrelevant, wasteful, and distracting discussion when a non-white or a woman runs as the Democratic candidate for president in a decade or so.

But just to make you happy, I'll take my socks off, roll my pants legs up, and step into the pigpen with you: yr boy Arnold has orange skin five days out of ten, too. So eat me.

6

But just to make you happy, I'll take my socks off, roll my pants legs up, and step into the pigpen with you: yr boy Arnold has orange skin five days out of ten, too. So eat me.

Ah yes, another thoughtful, intelligent post; and you think I'm the one contributing to the "fallen discourse that is destroying our Democracy." I am starting to think I may have overestimated your age.

7

Hey Larry . . .

I'll bet you a box of really good steaks that the first Woman and/or Minority president takes office on the Republican ticket. I listen to Democrat politicians talk about diversity and watch Republicans exercise it. Note the differences between the Clinton and Bush Cabinets.

Whoops! I forgot. They're not really minorities if they're conservative. Please disregard my original comments.

8

For what it's worth I think democracy is well served by discussions such as this. It's much better to shout and scream at each other than to be bashing each other's heads in.

What would be a terrible sign in my view, and perhaps herald the fall of democracy, would be if such discussions were banned or produced state sanctioned violent recriminations for the participants.

As far as the topic header, it seems to me the press has done a rather poor job in scrutinizing political leaders from every party and that that's been the case for as far back as I care to examine.
Our free press definitely assists democracy a heck of a lot more than no press or a state controlled press.
But successful career politicians are among the most gifted salespeople on the planet, and if you judge them purely on how they make you 'feel' and ignore data, history shows you will get the short end of the stick sooner or later.

To objectively weigh candidates against each other we the people need information we can trust about each candidate including, most critically, the answers to the hard sticky questions each candidate wants to avoid giving.

Both parties know this and avoid devulging information on controversial topics like the plague.
We have to count on the media to squeeze it out them despite those natural inclinations to avoid providing it.

9

Rob wrote

"I'm the one contributing to the "fallen discourse that is destroying our Democracy."

Thanks for admitting it, man.

Seriously, Rob, just because you disagree with the viewpoint in a comment doesn't mean the comment is without substance.

10

Matt:

"I forgot. They're not really minorities if they're conservative."

Strawman.

"I listen to Democrat politicians talk about diversity and watch Republicans exercise it."

Yeah. Like at the Republican convention. Lots of minorities in the crowd. And all those Republican Senators and Congresspeople of color. Loads of 'em. I don't need to bring up all the gays running around at the convention, do I?

Spare me.

11

And here I thought this was the Republic of America... hmmm

12

What a maroon!

Larry writes:
I don't need to bring up all the gays running around at the convention, do I?

So tell me Larry how do you know which politicians are gay and which ones are not at the convention? Did you check all the "women" to see if they had man-hands? We all want to know how you did it ! !!

thane

13

Thane, yeah, that's pretty much point. Thanks.

14

"at least in an Alanis Morissette kind of way"

:)

15

~ds~: Both parties know this and avoid devulging information on controversial topics like the plague.

Like the depletion of oil resources, which is not only used for transportation and heat, but also to provide our agricultural bounty.

Anagram for The End Of Days: "Sad, thy no feed".

Or like global warming, which predicts a thick smog of carbon dioxide ahead unless we do something quick.

Anagram for The End Of Days: "Shady feed not".

And if you don't believe this, the anagram server backs up my claims!

http://www.wordsmith.org/anagram/anagram.cgi?anagram=The+End+Of+Days

It even gives clues on Kerry:
"He tans odd? feh!"

16

Just a quick note for Larry. There have only been two black senators since you have been alive (the other two were one hundred years ago or more). One was a Republican, the other was a Democrat (Carol Moseley Braun--a politician to write home about).

Polls show, increasingly, that hispanics are turning toward the Republican party--a party that has recently advocated for looser immigration laws in contrast to the union sponsored Democratic party which has taken a Buchanan-like "anti-foreigner" policy intent on preventing "American jobs" from going overseas (or at home if you will look around) to all those "people of color." Gee, it would be too bad if we spread some of our wealth to sprawling, affluent metropolises like India, huh?

Around the country a number of strong black candidates were on Republican tickets (Herman Cane and Alan Keyes to name but two), and the Bush administration has more high-ranking black officials than any in history (not to mention a number of hispanic individuals, as well)--though I am certain you will levy the common criticism that Condi and Colon don't count because they don't think like you and your uber-white candidate for President, a man so insensitive as to proclaim himself the "second black candidate for President". Nice touch. Too bad several African-American groups came out highly critical of his statements and the campaign suffered weeks of embarassment (does orange count as "color" for you?)

Throw in the fact that Democrats imprisoned the Japanese in World War II, and I don't think your platform, at this point based primarily on the fact that Jesse Jackson, Al Sharpton, and Margaret Cho are Democrats (you must be proud), is very strong.

Thank you for your antiquated and cliched attack on Republican diversity, however. I am glad you have examined the matter closely and look forward to further insight. I am sure your varied debates with your loads of black, hispanic, native-American, gay, transexual, Asian, and African friends were crucial to the formation of this particular political view--as informed and well-constructed as any you have expressed on Joe's site.

17

Oops...make that Colin. My that is an easy name to misspell in a thoroughly embarassing manner.

18

What really amuses me is the fact that Joe depends upon Matt Drudge, a man who is clearly gay to vote for a Republican.

He mock's Ali G', the comic who got a republican bar to sing "throw the Jew down the well" http://www.campchaos.com/show.php?iID=866.

It always amazes me that Jesus never said anything against gays, yet said divorce is evil multiple times. I'll never undersand evangelical policy until they figure this out.

19

Quote: yr boy Arnold has orange skin five days out of ten, too. So eat me.

Hey, Larry why don't you go nicedoggie.net and try pulling that kind of crap there...with professionals. You won't because you are a wimp... DONATIONS TO BUSH NOW AT $440.

20

It's true. Arnie does have orange skin, just like Kerry does.

It's a disease. It comes from going to bed with the Kennedy's.

21

It always amazes me that Jesus never said anything against gays, yet said divorce is evil multiple times. I'll never undersand evangelical policy until they figure this out.

He was addressing the abuse of certificates of divorce that were allowed under the Mosaic law. Considering the absolute condemnation of homosexuality under that same law, he didn't really need to expound on it.

Matthew 5:17-20

Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.

Funny. That passage is in the same chapter on divorce in Matthew...

Then again, the whole chapter/verse organization was only added in the mid-16th century, as I remember it.

Now, who has to figure out what?

22

Edit: as the passage on divorce...

23

Seriously, Rob, just because you disagree with the viewpoint in a comment doesn't mean the comment is without substance.

LL--I'm looking at all your responses to me, and I am not finding any substance, just a bunch of non-sequitors and personal attacks.

Regarding Kerry's skin tone, I didn't make that an issue, quite honestly I could care less what his skin tone is, you did. My comment related to how he seems overly concerned with his personal appearance, and how I think it reflects on his character to hold high office. I think that some one of Kerry's age and position who feels the need to go to such extremes to look younger displays a certain lack of confidence, and I think that is an issue. Say what you want about Bush, he is obviously comfortable in his own skin, something Kerry is not. Another example of what many feel is non-issue is Kerry's voting for the $87B before he voted against it. His rational was that he would only vote for the money as long as it included a tax increase to pay for it. To me, it looks like Kerry is more concerned with raising taxes than supporting our armed services. Does anybody think if that $87B was going to raise teacher salaries, pay for perscription drugs for seniors, or build a highway in Mass. he would have cared how it was funded? Again, I think it shows Kerry's lack of seriousness as a Presidential candidate. IMO, the best thing in the world for the Democratic party would be for Bush to clean Kerry's clock and for the Republicans to get 60 seats in the Senate. If that happened, perhaps the Democrats would get rid of the Clintons and McAuliffe and put some adults in charge of the party.

24

Rob said:
"Bush, he is obviously comfortable in his own skin,"

Obviously not. The White House spent millions of taxpayer dollars on the "Mission Accomplished" photo op, and has spent millions more on the cosmetic appearance of the sets for Bush's other photo ops, as well as his exact placement and camera angles within those sets.

The Bushes also make a great cosmetic effort to keep their drunken daughters out of view. But Washingtonians know differently: Jenna was boozing in a nearly unwalkable state around Georgetown just last week. That says a lot about the Bushes' lousy parenting, as well as preoccupation with media image.

As for Kerry's vote on the $87B: Anyone who voted for that much taxpayer money, while making no effort to either cut spending elsewhere or raise the needed revenue through taxes, is unfit for public office. (Yes, I'm accusing the majority of Democrats AND Republicans of engaging in fiscally immoral behavior.) A growing economy will NEVER catch up or keep pace with Bush's runaway borrowing.

25

The White House spent millions of taxpayer dollars on the "Mission Accomplished" photo op, and has spent millions more on the cosmetic appearance of the sets for Bush's other photo ops, as well as his exact placement and camera angles within those sets.

Knowing a little something about the costs of naval aircraft flight time, millions is probably a couple of orders of magnitude too high. Let's face it, since the TV age, every president spends a lot of money on making sure they look good for the camera, why is it only an issue for Bush.? How much did that Dukakis tank ride cost(other than costing Dukakis the election)? How about when Clinton shut down LAX for 2 hours to get a haircut? I bet that cost a pretty penny.

The Bushes also make a great cosmetic effort to keep their drunken daughters out of view.

It's a good thing my parents didn't get blamed for every stupid thing I did when I was a teenager, let alone an adult (18 being the age of majority). I couldn't count the times I had to stagger home from Georgetown after I turned 18 (would have drank and staggered closer to home if Maryland hadn't raised the legal drinking age). But hey, now I don't have to feel bad, in Mike A's world it all Mommy and Daddy's fault. Can I blame them for my first marriage too?

As for Kerry's vote on the $87B: Anyone who voted for that much taxpayer money, while making no effort to either cut spending elsewhere or raise the needed revenue through taxes, is unfit for public office.

Yes, that's the attitude that won all of America's conflicts. Soldiers are out of bullets, too bad we can't afford new ones until the new fiscal year, use your bayonets. Tanks out of gas, tough toenails, no gas until we pass that new tax on the rich (now defined as anybody who actually has a job as opposed to a trust fund). It's a good thing Abe Lincoln and FDR didn't agree with that sentiment.

26

Mike--It is interesting to note that you don't dispute my assertion that Kerry wouldn't have hesitated to vote for the $87B if it was for teacher's salaries, or something else he is in favor of. Honestly, does anybody think he can pay for all the goodies he is promising (healthcare reform, middle class tax cut, more soldiers, no change to Social Security, etc.) by only taxing people who make $200k/year or more?

27

Kerry could raise a good chunk of $87 billion just by auctioning off his wife's estates around the world, and going to Fantastic Sam's instead of flying in Christophe.

For all that I love tax cuts, I have to admit that John F. Kerry's is the world's greatest walking advertisement for doing away with the unlimited marital deduction.

28

This just in:

John Kerry has just agreed to be the mascot for Syracuse University.

29

Oompa-loompa! Oompa-hee-hee!
If you're Bright, you MUST vote for ME!
Oompa-loompa! Oompa-hee-hom!
Did you know I Served in Vietnam?

30

Rob writes

"My comment related to how he seems overly concerned with his personal appearance, and how I think it reflects on his character to hold high office."

Does Kerry seem that way to you Rob? Are you an expert on grooming and personal hygiene now?

I think Bush looks like a monkey. I think that reflects on his character. So take that Rob. I suppose you'll come back with some bogusness about Bush's performance as President and try to divert the conversation away from the real issues: hair styles and susceptibility to cold sores. This is the 21st century after all.

31

John writes

" I am sure your varied debates with your loads of black, hispanic, native-American, gay, transexual, Asian, and African friends were crucial to the formation of this particular political view--as informed and well-constructed as any you have expressed on Joe's site."

John. In fact, I do live in one most diverse cities on the planet. People here vote at least 4 to 1 Democrat versus Republican. Go figure.

The vast majority of the Kerry-bashing folks here? Straight white guys. Go figure.

Biggest fans of Republican shills like Rush Limbaugh and Fox News? Straight white guys. Go figure.

It's called reality, folks. Deal with it.

32

LL writes--"I think...like a monkey."

I think Larry Lord should stop taking quotes out of context if he is going to respond to posts.

33

Well, gee Larry--what am I to do in the face of such staggering anecdotal evidence? Why don't we just ignore all of the statistics, polls, and historical and sociological data. We can also ignore the actual composition of the administration and the ethnic composition of your man Kerry (or Carter, or Clinton, . Then, we could rely purely on the evidence you have gathered from your friends over coffee and teat in your admittedly urban area (you know, considering urban areas, despite racial or ethnic make-up vote predominantly Democratic). Good call. Way to go on the rebuttal.

34

Rob, damn you are one unoriginal S.O.B. See my 4:59 post from yesterday where I used the same technique to convey your own egregious mistakes to you.

Maybe you should pay more attention to Kevin. His humor average is hovering at a respectable 0.227 these past couple weeks. Meanwhile, you're whiffing on softballs.

Seriously, though, I did think of you when I stumbled across Bill "Bush drove us into a ditch" Kristol's take on Gore's smooch with his wife at the Democratic Convention in 2000:

"“Al Gore is not a totalitarian. But his willingness to use his family members for political purposes reveals a self-regard and self-absorption, a ruthlessness and lack of restraint, that have taken him into new territory, well beyond George W. Bush, beyond even his master, Bill Clinton.”

Totally hilarious. By the way, George Bush's inability to chew pretzels completely has me concerned. If he can't finish a pretzel before swallowing, why do you think he will be able to win the war on terrorism? I'm sure you've struggled with this, too, Rob, so please share with us your thoughts on that deeply troubling incident during Bush's first term.

35

"Well, gee Larry--what am I to do in the face of such staggering anecdotal evidence?"

Do you know what anecdotal means, John? Apparently you don't. I recited facts to you. Remember those?

It doesn't matter what your "world view" is, John. A greater percentage of straight white guys and ladies are in the Republican party versus the Democratic party. How could you possibly doubt that this is true???? I know that Repubs are trying hard to recruit homophobic blacks and Hispanics into their party. How wonderful for you all. Good luck with that.

"Then, we could rely purely on the evidence you have gathered from your friends over coffee and teat"

Sorry, my friend, but I like my coffee black. Like my women.

36

LL--The difference between my use of selective quoting (aka "Dowdification" after the NYT columnist) and your's is that mine was actually funny, whereas your's was just lame. It was funny because, like all great comedy it had an element of truth. You in fact do think like a monkey. Get it. Ha, ha, ha.

Seriously though, I know you are probably freaking out in light of Bush's impending victory, but relax. It will take at least a year or two before Bush can establish his Methodist theocracy (I can't say that without laughing) and start opening up the atheist concentration camps. That should give a smart guy like you plenty of time to make arrangements to emmigrate to a more friendly country, France for instance. We will certainly miss you, but we know you will be happier there. Bon chance.

37

George Bush's inability to chew pretzels completely has me concerned.

Yes, that should, but what about his propensity for falling off his bike. Does that concern you too? You should probably vote for Kerry, because when he falls it never his fault, it always that dumb Secret Service agents fault. You know the guy who gets paid to take a bullet for him. But, hey I am all out of non-sequitors for the moment. I'm sure I will think of more later.

38

Larry, this will be my last comment on the subject as we appear to be running in circles. First, I do know what anecdotal means. That is why I used it correctly in the sentence above. Now, however, I doubt your definitional knowledge.

Second, I will rerun all of the above facts. I would rerun yours, but there have been none. Currently, more African-Americans and more Hispanic-Americans vote Democratic: correct.

If you were looking to do an economic analysis of the subject, however, you would see that this is not because Republicans are bigots who deter minorities through cross-burning; it is actually, primarily, a result of two things: persistent, recurring social norms, and the high correlation of other economic and social variables with incidence of specific racial classification.

You see, those of us who do not believe, say, that black skinned individuals just must be wired to vote a certain way would look deeper to see the actual causation of those factors. The fact of the matter is that the Republican Party until approximately 40 years ago WAS the party of minority voters (at least the minorities you care about to exclude Christians, Muslims, Amish people, Jews, etc.). Over the intervening forty years there has been a radical shift in these patterns--particularly among the only two groups, again, you care about: racially, blacks and hispanics, and among a newly introduced voting block, homosexuals--however, my point is that the "Democratic Party is the party of minorities" motto a) has a limited and bigoted view of what constitutes a minority (using predoiminantly race to include on a few racial classification, using homosexuals, and using women) b) is historical only a passing trend, and c) at least in modern times, is not a result of explicit racism in one or the other party, i.e. Klan members in Congress (unless you count Democratic Senator Robert Byrd).

The lazy bigotry of the left is completely missing a growing demographic shift among racial, ethnic, religious, etc. minority voters with illogic like the stuff you have decided to employ. So, please, keep insisting that your coffee get-togethers have reaffirmed your belief that all non-whites simply have to vote Democratic (for no reason as far as I can tell from your citations); meanwhile, Republicans will continue to promote policies that actually appeal to minorities and treat them as more than just a skin color or sexual preference.

You see Larry, that is why, despite your outrage, Republicans continue to control the House, the Senate, and the Presidency. That is why the only black Supreme Court Justice is a conservative. That is why a Republican Administration has more high-ranking African-American officials than any in history...and in the world of fact versus "Larry's mind", the list goes on and on.

Have a nice day, Larry. I am just so glad the continued intellectual laziness of you and others like you is essentially delivering each election to those of us on the right again and again.

39

"I would rerun yours, but there have been none."

Liar. I told you the facts. I live in one of the most diverse places in the United States. It's overwhelmingly Democratic.

You can question the relevance of those facts, John. Be my guest. But please stop pretending that you don't know the difference between a fact and an anecdote. Thanks.

"The lazy bigotry blah blah"

Man, how old is your script? That lazy bigotry line is going on three or four years at least. Really tired. Really lame. Try a new salad dressing. Something original and thoughtful from your own brain instead of Karl Rove's. Thanks.

"If you were looking to do an economic analysis of the subject, "

I'm not. Nice strawman, though!

"You see, those of us who do not believe, say, that black skinned individuals just must be wired to vote a certain way ..."

Wow, talk about a strawman! Totally sick! Who could even imagine such a bogus and racist charge being made in a serious debate? I'll tell you: conservative white racists, that's who.

"at least the minorities you care about to exclude Christians"

???? The Christian minority I care to exclude? Huh??? What country are we talking about John? You are completely full of crap. Where do you get this stuff?

Never underestimate the crap that a desperate conservative will dredge up when the facts contradict his fantasy world.

"Republicans will continue to promote policies that actually appeal to minorities and treat them as more than just a ... sexual preference"

Hmm. What does say about gay marriage in the Republican party platform, again? Please remind me, John. It'll be a good exercise for you.

"Republicans continue to control the House, the Senate, and the Presidency. That is why the only black Supreme Court Justice is a conservative."

Bwahahah!!!! This is too freaking funny. Oh, it all makes sense now, John. Yes, I do remember that Democrats vehemently opposed Clarence Thomas' appointment to the Supreme Court because he was black. Hilarious. The Democrats only want lily white judges in the Federal Courts. After all, it's well known that white judges are hard wired to be activist judges. Right? Check your script and let me know how I'm doing.

40

Guy goes to the doctor. Doctor says, what's wrong. Guy says, I dunno Doc, I'm kinda embarrassed, but my penis is turning orange!

Doc has him undress, and sure enough, the man's member had turned into a bright-orange hue.

The doctor was perplexed, and took down a few books to ask some questions.

"Do you work around industrial chemicals?" He asked. No, was the answer.

"Hmm. How about household solvents, insecticides, anything of that nature?" No.

"How about exposure to exotic pets or plants while on the job." No, he said, I don't work, I'm unemployed.

"Well, the doctor said, what do you do all day?"

The man says, "Mainly I sit around the house, watch porn videos, and eat Cheetos."

41

This has been the most ridiculously, unnecessarily contentious thread I have read in quite some time. C'mon, guys. Have a beer. Watch the debate.

42

Wow. . .Larry Lord still at it... Banging away at his own monkey. Does anyone even listen to what this guy is saying? Unbelievable Larry... You are so completely full of crap and void of fact - Oh! I guess that's redundant...
I can't even address one of your points... BECAUSE THERE ARE NONE. You are such a parrot. Do you have an original thought rattling around in that miopian brain of yours.
I'll just do what I came here to do. Larry you're an idiot!
and by the way... you're an idiot! Oh! I guess that's redundant.

A note from: The Department of Redundancy Department

43

Rob R.

I took your advice. I really enjoyed the beer. I think Bush wishes he could drink one too after tonight's debate. Of course, that might take some of the whitening off his teeth ...

44

Any beer drunk at the White House, provided there's any left over after this afternoon's bender by Jenna and Barbara, will be celebratory.
Tonight's battle was a draw; Kerry will lose the war.
Unbelievable how Kerry will look good on the stump, then when you parse his words, the self-contradictions blow down the house of cards.

If I were running the DNC, I'm pulling out the following Kerry mis-steps for our ads two weeks out:
1. The subways were NOT shut down in NYC for the convention, as he says;
2. Tommy Franks own book says that no troops were denied to his effort in Afghanistan; Kerry quoted him otherwise;
3. The "global test" was a devastating, suicidally stupid comment to make, and played right into Bush's hands;
4. Did Kerry actually offer nuclear fuel to Iran? Is this his way of attacking his self-proclaimed "most dangerous world problem today"?
5. WMD's crossing the border? I thought there weren't any.
6. The SF were guarding the oil facilities, because Hussein himself promised that he would blow them up as soon as Americans crossed the border.
7. SF were coordinating the attacks on Tora Bora, letting the Northern Alliance and precision bombs do their dirty work; they didn't "outsource" anything.
8. Did Kerry offer up unilateral nuclear disarmament, in an effort to appease the world? Seemed like it.
9. Global warming treaty? Defeated unanimously in the Senate, presumably by him included. Another flip flop.

The RNC have their talking points for the next month. This election is over.

45

Rob, going back to your response to me:

Re: $87B: Both Kerry and Bush have grossly overpromised, -- and Bush has grossly overspent. Will Kerry overspend? Quite possibly, and I find that horrifying. Could anyone overspend as much, and as fruitlessly, as Bush has done? I'm not so sure.

Every dollar spent by the government now is borrowed from our children. That's money that our kids won't have to fight their crises.

Re: Superficiality/cosmetics: You seem to think that it's OK for conservatives to be superficial about some things (especially family values), but not OK for liberals to be superficial about some things. I think it's better for *both* sides to avoid superficiality. I also think the "liberal" and "conservative" labels are themselves superficial and outdated.

46

Kevin, your reaction to the debate lacks balance.

Kerry supporters gained more talking points against Bush than vice versa, but I'm not going to waste my own time reciting them here because I dislike both candidates.

47

Every dollar spent by the government now is borrowed from our children. That's money that our kids won't have to fight their crises.

Really, well then where are the taxes that come out of my check going? But really, using your logic we should have never fought WW2. That war was financed largely through the sale of savings bond that had to be paid back by the next generation. If the end result of the War on Terror is a safer, more prosperous world than the expense is worth it.

I also think the "liberal" and "conservative" labels are themselves superficial and outdated

Most liberals do, primarily because liberals would never be elected to anything outside of Berkley, CA (and a few other college towns) if they ran on what they really wanted to do.

48

Kevin writes

"6. The SF were guarding the oil facilities, because Hussein himself promised that he would blow them up as soon as Americans crossed the border."

C'mon. Kerry's point was not that the oil facilities shouldn't be guarded. It was that they shouldn't have been the ONLY facilities that were guarded.

And Kerry's larger point was about the pisspoor planning of the invasion because the Bush Admin surely knew (because it's common knowledge) that the looting of Baghdad was a guaranteed outcome and they did diddly squat to stop it.

49

The Special Forces who were in Baghdad immediately before the invasion had to be in the most vulnerable places. There were only a few hundred of them.

Hmm. Let's send three A-teams to the oil refinery, but make sure we have at least fifty or so to guard the Arts Council Building to protect the Mesopotamian pottery exhibit, and a dozen for each of Hussein's palaces, so the citizenry won't be toting off Saddam's gold-plated crappers. Is that about it?