1

Whatever happened to the Gospel-Driven Life?

I don't have any objections to Warren per se, but as a Southern Baptist I find too many of our SBC churches spend a ton of time working through the Purpose Driven Life to the neglect of the Word of God. It seems sad how many Christians will plow through Warren's book and yet rarely if ever crack open God's Word.

Again, the book itself is OK (I own a copy) and can be useful as Warren says, as a "tool", but it seems to be used more as a substitute for the Bible, not as a supplement to Christian living. I would level the same charge at the Left Behind Series, especially apporpriate given the great discussion of eschatology on the previous post.

2

Well, that just seems to be a case of the programs overtaking the Good News, which is a problem that has plagued churches since the time of the Apostles. Any framework that we create in order to better understand Scripture can become something of an idol. The key has always been to keep the book/tract/pamphlet/etc. in one hand and the Bible in the other, making sure that it is never closed while going between the two.

3

I agree with Arthur Sido to an extent (truly a man of God with a heart for God's Holy Word), but the same can be true with many more things. I don't want to "throw the baby out with the bath water", so to speak. I would say far more Christians are watching Nascar or other sports instead of reading that book or even the Word at all, much less where they are going on the internet. I suppose even web sites like this one could serve as a "substitute".

If I have to state a preference I would rather Christians read that book or some other book that leads them back to the scripture rather than Nascar, Basketball, Football, www.____.com, or even just watching TV.

Of course that is in the context of the individual, but in the context of the corporate body of the church, I would agree that I would rather see small groups choosing Epistles to work through rather than curriculum or book, but once again I would appeal to the cliche I used here about the bath water.

4

I gotta have a little rant sorry...
The purpose driven life had some great conclusions, ones that I heartily agree with, about the purpose for life. Yet I found again and again, poor logic, bad assumptions and badly chosen translations used in supporting those conclusions...In all, I found the book incredibly hard to read because I had to constantly check up on the translations he was using, and to do that I kept having to flip to the back of the book, where the actual verse references where....The least he could of done was use footnotes at the bottom of the pages...
It did also seem like a reasonable resource for new christians, but for the more mature christians, there did not seem to be much meat to it.

5

That is a fair point Dan. There are far too many Christians for whom worshipping is something that gets in the way of starting other Sunday activities. My concern is that with as many Biblically illiterate folks as we have in the church body, pastors ought to be encouraging the reading of the Word rather than the Purpose Driven Life. I may be easier to read Rick Warren than Isaiah but I think you get a lot more out of it.

I just wish the body of Christ put more focus on the Word. Paul has more to say about living the Christian life and running the Church than Pastor Warren. Daniel and John know more about the endtimes than Tim LaHaye.What is the point of God revealing Himself to us if we don't bother to read what He is saying? (this is not directed at the present company of course)

6

I have to say that I think Rick Warren is really onto something. I would not pastor a church that looks like Saddleback as that is not my style, bit his paradigm for evangelism is great.

I read "The Purpose Driven Church" and "The Purpsoe Driven Youth Group" about 4 years ago and it really changed my approach. Rick Warren is talking about becomeing a "wise master builder". The point is that we need to use our minds and our creativity in reaching our communities for Christ. Let me give an analogy. In business ultimately it is the engineering of the product and the engineering of the manufacturing process that makes for success. It is a man's prayer led wisdom to reach build a process to reach the lost that God uses to reach our communities. Warren is helping people realize that we are responsible for our generation and we need to stop making expcuses and start being effective without sacrificing the WORD. That is Rick Warrens point. The Purpose Driven Church talks about the theory and then the purpose driven life is just one example of the theory of creating a process that works being put into practice.

The point is that it is not just what we beleive that is important but whether or not we actually reach our generation for Christ. If you do both well, stay true to the word, and use any means necessary to win the lost, then your will honor the Lord.
God Bless
brad

7

The Purpose Driven Life parallels the relatively shallow depth of Christianity delivered at Saddleback Church, Rick Warren's home base. It's a seekers book and a seeker's church, marketed to the masses. Great book - simple, pragmatic formulae for living the Christian life in the modern world.

Per Rick Warren's formula for success, nothing terribly controversial is typically served up, with the exception that Saddleback started talking about wedge issues (abortion, gay rights, gay marriage, prayer in schools, etc.) from the pulpit last week, in an apparent run up to the elections. IMHO, this is a strategy to distract evangelicals from focusing on the poor job Bush is doing running the country, both domestically and in the foreign policy arena. I wouldn't be surprised if this strategy is rolling out across the country in evangelical churches as we speak, although I don't have any evidence to support this 'conspiracy' theory. And I see that Rick Warren is also out on tour around - surprise - some battleground states in the coming weeks. Not surprising, as RW personally coaches Dubya himself.

8

Sigh...

9

I have to confess that I wasn't able to make it all the way through PDL. I found it overly simplistic and aimed at a very broad audience. Any judgments I could make about the book would be rather incomplete.

Still, I think there is a tendency to have knee-jerk reaction to anything popular with evangelicalism. Many of us (and I am one of the worst) tend to have a rather elistist attitude, acting like the alternative music snobs that despise whatever happens to be appeal to the masses.

Sure there should be more focus on Bible reading and spiritual disciplines and evangelism and...wait a second, isn't that what Warren is talking about? We also tend to forget that the vast majority of people are on the other side of the church door. We have to reach them where they are if we are going to reach them at all.

Warren isn't asking for churches to dumb down the Gospel. He's simply providing another tool to help people in the church realize why God has brought them there.

10

You know, when it comes to "judging" the Purpose Driven Life, we ought to see it through the eyes and words of Jesus when He says, "every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit." (Matthew 7:17). Are people coming into a relationship with Christ? Several people in my church have come to know the Lord during the PDL. Is helping people into deeper fellowship? We've added 10 new small groups. Is it helping people move into missions? We had 30 new people go to Mexico for short-term mission projects to serve orphans and build homes. Is this bad fruit? I find those who seek to tear down others rather than build up one another in Christ have issues of pride in their lives.

11

The realization of gifts, in other words.

I finished it. Pretty good, but a bit bland for me, i.e. "simplistic." For a lot of people I think it was a smack on the forehead. And I think it gave me something of a new focus, at least. I happen to like the Message translation myself, but I also already a grasp on what is missing from a given passage, so I primarily use it readability. It especially gives some personality to Christ when he is speaking; it sounds less like I am reading a manual, which tends to plague the NIV, which I otherwise use.

12

To respond to a couple of John's comments from yesterday:

"Saddleback started talking about wedge issues (abortion, gay rights, gay marriage, prayer in schools, etc.) from the pulpit last week, in an apparent run up to the elections."

I'm just curious, when would you prefer that a church address such "wedge issues?" Perhaps in the doldrums of the second year of a presidential cycle? Or perhaps a day or two after the election is finished when the "shoulda-oughta-mighta" crowd can sympathize? It's not only the church's right, but its obligation to address those things that God must weep over - and just just in the comfort of the lull in the fighting, but most importantly when the battle is at its hottest.

As to Warren's tour of "battleground states" - let's see, he started in Washington DC at the Pentagon, moved on to Orlando to talk to a bunch of Christian counsellors at a convention, then went to West Point, then on to NYC for a Today show appearance and other speaking engagements, then to Atlanta for a number of presentations to business leaders and philanthropists, then yesterday to Chattanooga for the kick-off of a 40 Days of Purpose event, and today and tomorrow will be speaking to the Mothers of Pre-schoolers convention in Nashville, then on to Liberty University. Seems to me like he's speaking to the "choir" almost everywhere. I guess you could legitimately use the word "battleground" at the Pentagon and West Point, but not in too many other places. Although the NBC studios on the Today show might qualify.... Certainly doesn't seem like the political stumping John hinted at.

Blessings,

Zoomie

13

re: previous post - should say "NOT just in a lull in the fighting..."

(apologies for an early-morning loss of brain-to-hand function...)

Zoomite

14

I once went to a church that got PDL'ed. We all all read the book; the pastor preached the canned sermons. The experience was neither great nor dreadful. It came and went like a five-minute whirlwind in a plowed, dusty wheat field on a hot summer's day. Rick's book was okay-so-so, but what I really did not like was the proliferation of all these goofy Bible translations-that-are-not-really-translations-but-some-guy's-whacky-paraphrase-with-added-stuff-that's-not-really-there. Now it seems pastors everywhere are habitually using a half dozen different goofy Bible "translations" during their sermons.

Sigh. Nobody is singing on the same note anymore.

15

The whole concept of PDLing makes me grind my teeth. I grew up in an SBC church and I have acquired an allergy to big church programs. Which makes being chair of Christian Education at my current church kinda tough at times.

But I read PDL. And I was underwhelmed. Nothing in it that anyone who pays attention in Sunday School wouldn't know. But that's the catch isn't - no one is paying attention in Sunday School. OR Sunday School is not teaching things with enough depth to make a difference in our people's lives. Somehow, that's even worse.

16

Zoomie,

Yours is a rhetorical question, of course. I don't prefer that churches address wedge issues at all, not in run-ups to elections, and not in non-election years. But, of course, you never hear wedge issues debated much in non-election years, because nothing is at stake.

IMHO, wedge issues are minor to nill considerations when a voter is tasked with determining whether a candidate is qualified to oversee and manage public sector business operations, including providing prudent fiscal policy, and ensuring public safety and services to all the constituents under their control, not just a privileged few, whether it be at the city, county, state, or federal level. Unfortunately, wedge issues have nothing to do with this common sense process envisioned by our forefathers. Folks who vote based on wedge issues frequently end up with incompetent, utterly unqualified managers of high government, who spend their time in office playing quid pro quo politics, because they're not qualified to truly govern. A perfect example of this is President Bush, who can thank conservative evangelical Christians for installing him in office, despite the fact that he had been an utter failure in all attempted business enterprises prior to moving to the public sector. And now, through his policies of borrow and spend, has managed our country to the greatest debt burden in history (and just today greatly increased the deficit), which our children will be saddled with to their detriment. And because he lacks any appreciation of history, and is a self-proclaimed "non-reader", and relies on far-fringe ideologues to dictate foreign policy, he has led our nation into the current no-win quagmire in Iraq, our modern day Vietnam, no matter how fervently he insists all is going well.

That's why wedge issue politics are bad for America. They are invariably personal issues that are simply not as black and white as evangelicals would have you believe. For example, evangelicals like yourself are dead set against abortion and a woman's right to choose, but apparently you support in-vitro fertilization, since I never hear a bad word about it from the pulpit in the evangelical churches I have attended over the years. Yet, the fact is, in-vitro fertilization kills several fertilized embryos on every attempt to create a pregnancy. Yet, evangelicals strangely aren't all up-in-arms about this accepted practice. This is just one example of the hypocrisy of wedge issue politics.

17

I agree with many of the criticisms above. PDL is simplistic, and doesn't contain much I didn't know before. And I'm especially with Oengus Moonbones about the sometimes goofy translations Warren uses, and with Alan about the difficulty of cross-checking his scripture references because the footnotes were in the back. That was irksome.

But I'm not ashamed to admit, sometimes I need simple. "It's not about me" is not a profound statement, but it had a profound effect when I read it. And there were some practical ideas about ways to incorporate Christian beliefs into daily life that I found useful.

18

John:
That's why wedge issue politics are bad for America. They are invariably personal issues that are simply not as black and white as evangelicals would have you believe. For example, evangelicals like yourself are dead set against abortion and a woman's right to choose, but apparently you support in-vitro fertilization, since I never hear a bad word about it from the pulpit in the evangelical churches I have attended over the years. Yet, the fact is, in-vitro fertilization kills several fertilized embryos on every attempt to create a pregnancy. Yet, evangelicals strangely aren't all up-in-arms about this accepted practice. This is just one example of the hypocrisy of wedge issue politics.

It's interesting that it's only evangelicals who lead you to believe that "wedge issues" are black and white. There seems to be a great deal of certainty on both sides of these issues. If you don't support gay marriage, you may be labeled a bigot or homophobic, for example.

Yes, there are evangelicals opposed to in vitro fertilization. I'm one. My reasons for not talking much about it are two-fold. First, I believe the number of embryos destroyed in the fertilization process is much smaller than the number of abortions. (I may be mistaken in that, and would welcome correction or confirmation, I don't have time to check the numbers right now.) Second and more importantly, it doesn't make much sense to try to persuade people that the destruction of embryos in petri dishes is wrong, when so many are unpersuaded that the destruction of embryos in the womb is wrong. If I can persuade people that abortion is wrong ... then we can expand the discussion.

This is already far enough off topic, so I won't even try to engage the issue of Bush's competence. Suffice to say, that although his general boobery is taken as an article of faith on the left, that also is not a "black and white" issue.

19

John,

I'd agree strongly that wedge issue politics are not by themselves the best way to determine who may be better qualified to lead the nation. But, they are, I believe, a way of filtering through those things that may, according to either personal preferences or deeply-felt spiritual convictions, be disqualifying - or at least shaping - in the selection of who, among the available failures and sinners, to vote for (or for some, whether to vote at all). When my Dad, who was a lifelong independent voter, was explaining to me his rationale for a particular choice, it more often than not came down to "vote your conscience." I'd maintain that the wedge issues are often those expressions of a Christian's conscience that one should not set aside.

I think it's an unfortunate compartmentalization of our faith that somehow would ask us to remove faith from faith-based conviction and faith-based action on "political" issues. Contrary to what many would espouse, Christian faith is not a private matter - it's publically lived. The Christian has the obligation (in good evangelical manner) to publically state and publically act upon his or her convictions. Our love for mankind is not limited to handing out blankets, medicine, and food aid. It also requires of us to stand up for and speak up for those moral and social "wedge issues" and principals that Scripture addresses. If not from the pulpit or the voting booth, then where?

Zoomie

20

We used the 40 days of purpose prpgram at our church. It added to small group participation and, as at B. Samuel Yu's church, it increased the number of people willing to go on an overseas mission trip this year. We also seem to have fewer people complain that they don't like this or that kind of music at a service or didn't get as much out of a worship service as they would have liked. I think it's a decent tool but was not intended to be the end of the spiritual journey.

21

I've seen my local church jump on the PDL Bandwagon. Maybe I'm a bit cynical, but I call the book, "Forty Days of Manipulation".

I see the church leaders requiring every member to attend a 2nd weekly small group, where peer pressure is applied to recruit strangers and to volunteer for unpaid church work. If you don't go to the small groups, then you're "not with the program".

I resent the peer pressure. My faith is between me and my Lord. I don't need a nosy do-gooder calling me up and nagging me to fill out a silly workbook to "prove to the group" that I'm being faithful or fulfilling my purpose (which I had to write in a workbook the week before).

It feels a lot like Multi-Level Marketing, which is a big turn-off to many people.

I forecast that many churches will experience a rise in "numbers" but they have transformed themselves into a corporate "fakeness" that puts interpersonal pressure ahead of the genuineness of a one-on-one relationship between you and God.

22

There is some truth behind the ideas in PDL. That don't outweigh the rest of the horse manure wantonly scattered throughout this travesty. Oh yes, it is horse manure, yes. Here are some reasons why:

1. Old people are people too. Wiser, smarter, and if Christian, probably BETTER than you. They just don't look like Christina Aguilara.
2. Jesus don't want no numbers.
3. You simply aren't a number.
4. The kingdom is filled with saints, not masses of people seeking spiritual pacifiers.

23

Personally, I got pretty tired of hearing the PDL was in the Top ten NY Times best sellers list...yeah, right next to the weightloss books and how to have a better self esteem books...plus it was said as if somehow it was on THE list...no it was in the list of Self Help and Miscellaneous...and no one wanted to point out it made the list by sheer numbers...numbers of books bought in boxes for the telecasts and PDL seminars...if the book wasn't given away so much and just sold through regular book stores...doubt it would have had the numbers...but apart from the reliance on a "this worldly" market and resource (i.e., the NY Times) and a phoney-spirualizing of the significance of its numbers sold (as if God had anything to do with it), of course the book appeals to the general unchurched...cheap grace always is. And the use of Scripture was aweful. I am more appalled that our gifted biblical scholars have given a pass to Warren and his use (mis-use) of scripture. Only in today's American culture...

24

PS Arthur...Gospel-Driven Life...now that's worth a book! Best one line comment/critique I have read on the topic of the PDL and R Warren. In fact, I will quote you and give you the credit in my next Rough Cut (exposition) which will be on Col 3:16...see the site sometime.

25

I I felt like the victim of a bait-and-switch swindle going from ch. 1 to ch. 2 of PDL, like someone had ripped out pages in my John Piper book and replaced them with Oprah. It starts out great: It all starts with God, its not about you, this is not a self-help book, you were made for God, not vice versa, etc. But move on to ch. 2, and Warren goes against everything he just said: You are not an accident, God made you special, You are the only you there is, accept yourself because God don't make no junk, blah blah blah. That's as far as I could get.

26

David Naugle writes a great response to Rick Warren's "Purpose Driven...." series called Re-thinking Ecclessiology: The Worldview Driven Church.. (continued, continued)

27

I became a real Christian (as in not just saying I was a Christian, but actually living it) while in a small group based on PDL. Looking back on it now that I've started reading advanced books, it seems rather simplistic... but judge a tree by it's fruit. Is it hurting the cause of Christ or is it helping? I'd have to say that by and large it's helping.

28

Many think that the information presented in PDL may be too basic and steering people from reading the Bible. As our church is going through the small group PDL studies and related Sunday messages, I have seen many people who have started attending Church, started reading their Bible,and started attending Bible Studies. For many, this has been a life changing resource. I would have to agree, God could be using this to build and strengthen His church.

29

In response to Rod's comments on September 24, he hit the nail on its purpose-driven head when he said "But that's the catch isn't - no one is paying attention in Sunday School". That's exactly the point behind the Purpose Driven Church (precursor by many years to the PDL and a great resource for pastors interested in learning about what makes Saddleback tick like it does).

You're right. People aren't paying attention in Sunday School anymore, adults or children. A lot of them aren't paying attention to any other aspect of church either. As a member of Saddleback Church, I can tell you that's not the case there. Saddleback is healthy, vibrant. Yes there are some problems, but people are engaged in the church through and through, and it IS making a difference. Not only are they paying attention, but they're taking the message with them when they leave. Since my wife and I began attending Saddleback regularly with our children two years ago, I have noticed a tremendous spiritual growth in all of us (our 5 year old saved all his nickels and pennies to buy his unchurched best friend a Bible for his birthday), and I can watch it happening in my friends and neighbors, too. Walking my dog around my neighborhood, it's common to overhear others talking about last weekend's message, or the church's current struggles, or the upcoming campaign, or their personal struggles within the context of Scripture. People meet regularly in small groups for worship and study time, are actively involved in ministry, and have a deep love for God's word. I could go on, but the point is none of this was the case with any of the other churches I have attended. Active, involved, and engaged in His church and His works is the way God wants His people to be, and He has given (and is still giving) Rick Warren profound vision on one good way to achieve this.

30

PDL is definitely targeted for evangelism. It is primarily used as a tool to reach the unchurched, the lost, and the unsaved. The various Scripture contexts and translations are evidence of this. But it also hits the basic "disciplines" of the Christian life too. For those who would prefer a more "heady" or "complex" Christian walk, great - as long as you don't neglect reaching the unchurched. One thing that struck me about Rick Warren is his incredible passion for the lost. He's a great model of evangelism for all of us. Sola Gloria Dei!

31

my church is getting ready to do PDL and to me to sign a convenant would be like signing a contract with the devil himself !

32

PDL is boloney...and very sad
http://www.crossroad.to/articles2/2003/1-purpose.htm

33

The Pied Pipers of Purpose
http://www.crossroad.to/articles2/04/pied_pipers_of_purpose.htm

34

Dave Hunt and T.A. McMahon have written some great things on PDL. Check out www.thebereancall.org

35

Our church family is currently studying PDL and has formed additional small groups besides Sunday School. While neither of us are in favor of promoting any other book over and above God's Word, my husband and I are seeing people in church for prayer and study that have not been there previously, or at least on a regular basis. No program, not even our "Baptist" literature should be a replacement for God's Word, but we have certainly seen many teachers in our lifetime teach right out of the quarterly instead of opening their Bibles. We are not Biblical Scholars, but we are not illiterate, so as small group leaders, it then becomes "our" responsibility to take the group or individuals in the group to God's Word. While we agree that PDL has very basic information in it, we believe that there are more baby Christians in most churches than mature ones, and we agree with others who have commented that we need to get back to the basics. All the head knowledge in the world, of scripture or any other information won't mean a thing when our Lord returns if we can't answer yes to the following questions. Did I love the Lord with all my heart, soul, mind and strength...and did I love my neighbor as myself? Maybe we should stop picking PDL and/or Rick Warren apart and look in the mirror to see if we see a Christian truly committed to Jesus Christ. As for Saddleback Church, we are midwesterners. It was our privilege to visit Saddleback during a vacation in California. We were truly blessed to see all the opportunities that were offered for reaching others for Christ. If you don't want to sign a covenant, don't sign it. If you don't want to be encouraged to attend a small group, don't go. God already knows your heart, and you could be the one who misses the greatest blessing. I believe some people who refuse to attend small groups are afraid they might really find themselves opening up and becoming vulnerable to God's Word. To all of you out there considering PDL, pray and let the Lord direct your path. Don't even let anything I or anyone else said in these articles decide it for you.