1

What was it that Zell Miller told Chris Matthews last night?

"It's a metaphor, Chris. You know what a metaphor is, don't you?"

Of course, Zell Miller was telling lies before a nationwide television office, making a mockery of our democracy in the process.

Molly Birnbaum was exercising her right to speak freely in dissent of a government run by a political party whose express agenda is to take away her rights under the US Constitution.

Larry Lord likes Molly and would like to have a beer with her after she turns 21.

2

I was going to write a post to respond to Larry, but really, why feed the trolls?

3

Miller wasn't making a mockery of democracy, just Democrats. And Molly Birnbaum makes a mockery of herself.

4

The success or failure of a metaphor partly rests in its mirroring of the situation it seeks to describe. The problem here is that not only is it a gross exaggeration, but, from what I can see, has absolutely no basis in fact.

A smack with each bill you passed, a tear with each right you took until you left me disenfranchised with hands shackled and voice restrained.

I can't think of a single bill or policy action that would come close to that. The Patriot Act? The Marriage Amendment? The former has parts that haven't even been used yet (note: I disagree with the patriot act) and it hasn't been ruled unconstitutional by our Supreme Court. The latter hasn't been passed and didn't originate with Bush, even though he supports. And it doesn't evne interfere with the behavior of the gay demographic. So, I fail to see how those two enter in to that statement.

Tax cuts? Those weren't just "for the rich" and despite what one's opinion might be of the soundness of that policy, it has very little to do with shackling anyone. Outsourcing? Tax loopholes? Fine, call it corporate abuse if you want, but none of that has anything to do with civil rights.

Now, on terrorism you might have some grounds for that poem, but the vast majority of those arrested or detained for terrorism-related investigations are foreign-nationals and of those who only have a few hundred nation-wide over several years where you could actually make a case that their civil rights were violated. Again, I don't neccesaril;y agree with Bush's policies on this, but I don't see what it has to do with the country at large or how that poem pertains to it.

Molly Birnbaum was exercising her right to speak freely in dissent of a government run by a political party whose express agenda is to take away her rights under the US Constitution.

The fact that she is standing, before a crowd of people of like-minded people, saying this stuff shows you just how relevant her statement actually is. The avalanche of protestors in NY also shows you how relevant that is. Your statement, on this website, and my response show you just how relevant that poem is. The bias nature of the NY Times, Fox News, and CNN show you just how relevant that is.

I see no jack-booted thugs. I see no pictures of George Bush plastered against the side of a building. I see no eighty foot tall statue of him in Times Square. I do see questionalbe policies that could make more in-roads in to the errosion of civil rights, but, Rep. or Dem., he is the not the first to make those types of policy decisions, nor will he be the last.

And as to Zell Miller, I heard no factually inaccurate statements in his speech. I heard a lot of opinions and you may have your views on the rhetoric, but it was far short of "...telling lies before a nationwide television office, making a mockery of our democracy in the process." Far stronger statements were made early in our republic. Just read some of the published statements of Alexander Hamilton to get a taste.

5

"Miller wasn't making a mockery of democracy"

Oh, really? Spouting out filthy distortions of another candidate's record isn't making a mockery of democracy? Suggesting that dissent with authority is dangerous isn't making a mockery of democracy?

I respectfully disagree.

6

I think Larry Lord just got raped.

7

Suggesting that dissent with authority is dangerous isn't making a mockery of democracy?

What I heard was his disgust with the insults being hurled at troops and with the utter stupidity that passes for "protest." Reasoned dissent is one thing, but the craziness that goes on is far from that.

Do they have their right to it? Yes. Do they have the right to sit there and spout off with out someone answering them in a public forum or calling BS on their rhetoric? No.

8

Can you site specific distortions?

9

cite, if course

10

It will be interesting to see those distortions cited, because I'd be surprised to see the distortion in standing and reciting a bunch of votes. I mean, that is essentially what Mr. Miller did in that section of his speech, he recited each vote by Mr. Kerry and then recited what the things that he wanted to stop were able to do in the areas of defense.

Moreover, I don't know that his "spitball" comment comes anywhere close to the emotional harm that this rape poem could create. It seems almost insulting to women who have actually been raped that someone's presidency could have the same effect.

11

" I mean, that is essentially what Mr. Miller did in that section of his speech, he recited each vote by Mr. Kerry and then recited what the things that he wanted to stop were able to do in the areas of defense."

Hey Abigail, how do you suppose Big Time Dick Cheney's votes in those areas compare to Kerry's? Just take a guess.

12

What, deciding to cut short the production of the B-52 and and F-14D, shortly after the collapse of the Soviet Union? As opposed to Kerry's votes against their creation in the first place, during the Cold War? One was the policy of restructuring the military and shifting its focus, which talking to any experienced Vet or active duty soldier worth his salt, you would know. The other was largely a blanket trend against supplying our armed forces.

That is how they match up...

13

I know that Mr. Cheney may have agreed on some of those votes, but I also know that while in congress he voted to raise military spending. I'm looking up the specifics right now, but if the Democrats think that his voting record is an issue, they should talk about it, as they have every right to do.

However, your question to me doesn't answer the question posed to you about the alleged distortions by Mr. Miller.

14

Ahh, David had the specifics. Thank you David.
I would think that the Democrats would appreciate Cheney's desire to be a good steward of America's money when it comes to National defense.

Hawks can still be fiscally responsible, you know...

15

I have never met a 'pandemic woman'. At least I don't think so. What would she be like? Does Molly mean 'fat woman'? Maybe I have encountered a pandemic woman...

16

The poem is over-the-top and not worthy of the attention it's getting. It would be better for those on both sides of the ideological divide to focus on the issues and leave the hyperbole to the loonies present in each camp.

17

Good advice. I fully agree. It is just that the loonies seem to be multiplying. Wanna make sure that they get beaten back into their corner. That's all.

18

"leave the hyperbole to the loonies present in each camp."

Where is KTK anyway? ;)

Seriously, Abigail, do you think it not at all misleading when Miller characterizes vetoes of bills which were vetoed for reasons having to do with procedure or pork as making some sort of statement and IGNORES the fact that members of his own party (indeed, many members) have voted the SAME WAY on the SAME BILLS?

And Abigail, how many Americans do you think appreciate the subtlety of Miller's distortions? Do you think Miller would make those statements on national TV if the average American appreciated how bills are voted on?

Why do intelligent people put up with this crap? "Win at all costs"? Is that what Bushie's favorite philosopher told him?

19

"We are not some fringe lunatics, we are the people.” said Donna Lieberman, executive director of the New York Civil Liberties Union. “We are the mainstream of America."

Maybe I'm wrong but I don't think that mainstream America casually uses rape as a metaphor. I think fringe lunatics pretty much sums it up. Good choice of words.

20

Larry Lord quotes: "It's a metaphor, Chris. You know what a metaphor is, don't you?"

So what is "pandemic woman" a metaphor for? The savage rape of the English language?

21

"... political party whose express agenda is to take away her rights under the US Constitution...."

Is that the actual US Constitution (you know, the one Madison wrote and the people endorsed, with the amendments approved by Congress and the State Legislatures in the usual way) -- or the fantasy US Constitution that Harry Blackmun wrote in 1973, to appease his daughter, an activist with NARAL? You know, the fantasy Constitution that starts off with "Article I. The overriding goal of this Constitution is to preserve the right to kill unborn children for convenience, since we can't keep our pants on. Article II. All other rights and freedoms herein guaranteed (the right to vote, freedom of religion, freedom of speech, freedom of assembly, etc) are subordinate in all cases to Article I...."

22

The young lady's melodramatic poetry is a bit over the top, but I think from her point of view, quite sincere.

Whenever the anti-abortion crowd gets someone into power, it's very threatening to women who fall into the pro-choice camp. Not so much because they are afraid that their actual right to choose an abortion will be taken away, but rather that their sense of self-determination will be taken away.

The right to choose an abortion has become for them, a symbol of having the right to run their own lives as they see fit as free women and Americans.

Rape is a crime that is not just about some guy getting his rocks off at his convenience. Its a violent act that claims ownership of another human being. It's being enslaved forcibly. And slaves don't have the right to choose their own destinies. They have no right to self-determination. No right to a self at all. Their body itself is Owned.

So George W. Bush steps in, and tonight re-affirms that he will do everything possible to outlaw abortion.

His "message" is that he want to protect unborn life. But the message that they hear is entirely different. What they hear is that George W. Bush wants to own your body and take away your life.

So for a woman who see the abortion issue in this way, it a terrifying prospect. It's like someone telling you that they are going to rape and kill you, and you are just waiting for them to begin the actual act.

So naturally this causes a lot of fear and anger. What's being described as left-wing craziness is literally people who feel that their lives are being threatened. This is where the intense feelings, the hate comes from.

Of course, those on the right have their own brand of this. That fear and anger is not unique to the left at all. Just go to an anti-abortion demonstration, or an anti-gay marriage rally and you will see the same dynamic at work.

23

You want the real story on Kerry's defense voting record? Why not check here? For the record, I see people on the right cite FactCheck.org a lot more than people on the left, so this is by no means a left-biased site.

24

The poem is "over the top" -- but it's also an expression of outrage over something [as per Patrick]. The something involves issues of personal identity, worldview, consciousness. "Who is Molly?"

She believes in ... what? Political Correctness? That Bush is "a stupid dumb-ass"? That killing an unwanted fetus, even at 7 months of age, is the single most important freedom any intelligent woman wants, and needs; and those with different views are too stupid to know they're wrong?

Prolly some, or all, of the above.

Bush is claiming moral superiority, based on Christian morals, over what has long been an ascending secular moral high ground. An ascent that has been academically led, with little thoughtful critique; an ascent led by PC anti-God journalists, reporters AND editors; an ascent led by materialist marketing departments of every corp. who want folk to buy happiness in the form of the products it's their job to push.

Whose morals are superior? With every state Bush won, the USA answered ... Bush.

25

This is all a bunch of crap. The poem was ridiculously dramatic and the analogies uncalled for. One more reason why my respect for the wave of feminism has dwindled considerably.

26

Just goes to show how out of touch these radical feminazis are. The 2000 Florida vote has been so heavily analyzed and scrutinized by election officials, by newspaper editors, by lawyers from both sides, and guess what?--Al Gore never won any of them. This is rape? Until now, I always considered rape a serious crime--now I see that to even radical feminists it's no worse than having a judgment call go against you in a football game.

What about the shenanigans pulled in Saint Louis, which gave Missouri to Gore? What about the networks calling Florida for Gore early, thereby depriving the citizens of West Florida (in the Central Time Zone, for the geographically impaired) the right to cast a vote which mattered, the vast majority of which would have gone to Bush? What about the repeated votes cast by students in Wisconsin and Minnesota, all for Al Gore?

Can always count on the liberals to fight dirty, then cry "rape" or "racism" or "homophobia" or "sexism"--and they're talking to themselves. Nobody else is even listening anymore.

27

"Can always count on the liberals to fight dirty, then cry "rape" or "racism" or "homophobia" or "sexism"--and they're talking to themselves. Nobody else is even listening anymore."

And you can always count on the Right to also fight dirty and make claims about "anti-Americanism", "anti-family", "defense of marriage", "Hollywood elitists", "secularism"
There is more than enough of this PC crap to spread around both sides of the aisle. And you are incorrect in thinking that nobody pays attention to it. Your children do.

28

Good. I hope my children are listening to me.

After all, they go to school and hear that I'm greedy if I don't support another tax increase for teacher salaries. And they see on TV that I'm a bigoted jerk for dragging them to church every Sunday. And they hear on the radio that women are "bitches" and "hos" and cops are pigs. And they hear the Democratic nominee say that he's a hero for participating in war crimes, and that the President who's leading the civilized world against terrorism is a coward because he wasn't flicking his Bic with Kerry and his boys over 30 years ago, razing villages and raping women and children and cutting off ears.

29

The fact that Larry Lord stoops to a personal attack on me reveals that shallowness of his response. I appreciate the different points of view here. On the other hand, Larry has no point of view and has absolutely nothing to add to this forum except invective.

30

"Just goes to show how out of touch these radical feminazis are. The 2000 Florida vote has been so heavily analyzed and scrutinized by election officials, by newspaper editors, by lawyers from both sides, and guess what?--Al Gore never won any of them."

You are wrong, of course. Had all the counties been subjected to a recount, Gore would have won. With the votes of the disenfranchised, he probably would have won handily. Unfortunately, Gore cherry-picked and did not request an overall recount. I thought we had all seen these reports. It even appeared in the conservative newspaper I read, The Knoxville News-Sentinel.

"After all, they go to school and hear that I'm greedy if I don't support another tax increase for teacher salaries. And they see on TV that I'm a bigoted jerk for dragging them to church every Sunday. And they hear on the radio that women are "bitches" and "hos" and cops are pigs. And they hear the Democratic nominee say that he's a hero for participating in war crimes, and that the President who's leading the civilized world against terrorism is a coward because he wasn't flicking his Bic with Kerry and his boys over 30 years ago, razing villages and raping women and children and cutting off ears."

What a whiney, hand-wringing load of crap. You no longer even attempt to reign in your distortions. Ann Coulter in male form.

31

All right, had all the counties in New Mexico, Iowa, Wisconsin, and Minnesota been recouted, Bush might've picked up those too. And, how do you know? The votes were counted STATEWIDE by the news media--Bush won. Why doesn't it bother you liberals that Gore dispatched planeloads of lawyers to toss out as many absentee ballots they could find, under the presumption that military personnel would be voting Bush? And you whine about the disenfranchised?

Hmm. As to the second part of your post, I guess I'm not looking right now at a flyer tucked away in my daughter's papers, asking me to vote yes on another tax increase. And that the teacher's union isn't running ads against businessmen and landowners who are opposing the measure. I guess you think I don't really watch TV, or hear rap music pouring out of my neighbor's windows. And I guess you think that I don't know that Kerry confessed to Congress that he is a war criminal, but nobody really believes him because he's lied about practically every aspect of his record anyhow.

I'm not whining. My man is winning. The tax increase will fail. And Kerry and Edwards will be sent home. And you and others will whine that Bush stole the election again. Donna Brazile in male form.

32

Dave S., after having been shown how ill-considered his statement about Americans was, attempts to apologize:

"I appreciate the different points of view here. On the other hand, Larry has no point of view and has absolutely nothing to add to this forum except invective."

Nice try, Dave! You make a broad generalization with no basis in fact, you are shown how wrong your statement was, and you have nothing to say except to criticize my tone. Truly lame, but apologies for factual errors are hard to come by around here (Joe Carter being a notable exception).

33

Kevin writes

"And they see on TV that I'm a bigoted jerk for dragging them to church every Sunday."

What program is this, Kevin? South Park?

34

I hope Larry, Molly and the rest are ashamed. I have nearly a half dozen friends and acquaintances who have experienced the real, violent tragedy of rape. I have seen the faces of women (and men) at rape crisis centers who are totally destroyed by an event that stole (at least for a moment) their dignity and their free will. I wish you could see the sadness I have seen in the eyes of victims every time some feminist or (especially) grossly insensitive male throws around the word "rape" to describe a sports victory, a political action, or a rhetorical attack.

Of course that girl had a right to say what she said, but the continuing arrogance and ignorance of people like her and those who support her (i.e. Larry) literally rips apart the hearts of real victims. Why don't we expand our vocabularies a bit instead of throwing around, carelessly, a word that means so much to some. Respond with all the "but Bush does this" lines you want. Everyone does crappy stuff and you can argue that you are the lesser of two evils all day. The careless use of the word rape is 100 percent wrong, and no amount of wrongness on the other side should comfort those who would gouge the souls of violated women to serve their political goals.

35

"I wish you could see the sadness I have seen in the eyes of victims every time some feminist or (especially) grossly insensitive male throws around the word "rape" to describe a sports victory, a political action, or a rhetorical attack."

Thanks, John, for the kind thoughts. That's a real nice sentiment.

I wish you could see the eyes of a few of the thousands of innocent Iraqis who picked up pieces of their relatives bodies after they were blown to bits by US bombs, bombs dropped on President Bush's orders. Or the eyes of the men and women who were raped by our troops at Abu Ghraib, all under President Bush's watch.

Have a great day.

36

Abigail, filled with confidence (provided to her by some supernatural entity perhaps) asked:

"It will be interesting to see those distortions cited"

Okay, Abigail.

"today's Democratic leaders see America as an occupier, not a liberator."

So does George Bush. Let me know if I need to hold your hand and prove it to you.

"Listing all the weapon systems that Senator Kerry tried his best to shut down sounds like an auctioneer selling off our national security."

In 16 of his 19 years in the Senate, Kerry voted for the year’s full Defense appropriation. Every dollar spent on those systems was spent with Kerry’s “yes” vote. What about the Apache helicopter, Abigail?

CHENEY (8/13/89): The Army, as I indicated in my earlier testimony, recommended to me that we keep a robust Apache helicopter program going forward, AH-64…I forced the Army to make choices. I said, “You can’t have all three. We don’t have the money for all three.” So I recommended that we cancel the AH-64 program two years out.

Why does Big Dick Cheney hate America? Why does he welcome Osama riding on an H-bomb with open arms?

"Senator Kerry has made it clear that he would use military force only if approved by the United Nations."

Sure he did. Abigail, how clear is Senator Kerry on this issue to you? KERRY (7/29/04): "Let there be no mistake:...I will never give any nation or any institution a veto over our national security."

How much more is needed Abigail? Do I need to call someone up to hold your hand and help you type in the google searches to help you out?

Do I expect a retraction from Abigail? Of course not. She's too far gone.

37

Larry, no offense, and I truly mean this in the nicest way possible, but go yourself, you gassed up drugged out pathetic lying communist of a liberal.

38

Larry, thank you for proving my point. Rather than admitting your words, insensitive and unnecessary, hurt people who have suffered, you find someone else who you see as worse than you to blame. That takes great courage.

39

Kevin, it's hard for me to get worked up about the pernicious influences in your child's life when my kids have problems that stem from YOUR side of the ideological divide.

I share a dislike of gangsta rap with you. In fact, I think that much of popular culture is just disgusting. I try to limit my children's exposure to it. But some of what you may consider good is very bad to me. My children are marginalized each day in public school because they are not Christians. They have had other little children tell them they they are going to burn in Hell because they don't pray or believe in God.

So "Your daddy is greedy" doesn't stir much sympathy from me.

40

...problems that stem from YOUR side of the ideological divide. ...

They have had other little children tell them they they are going to burn in Hell

Observation of this thread should confirm what is already obvious; Even grown adults take great pleasure in insulting others. It appears that the tendency to say careless and spiteful things is a part of human nature that cannot be blamed on a particular brand of ideology.

Please forgive me for my insensitive use of the term 'rape' (John). Maybe some other time we can have a real discussion about it.

41

munchkin, whoa there potty-mouth. this a focus-on-the-family sponsered site. children may be present.

and why does cheney hate america? outsourcing all the ameridcan jobs to iraq. my school needs to be re-built. but appartently theirs are a higher priority. oh, wait, they have the oil, sorry.

42

Whenever the anti-abortion crowd gets someone into power, it's very threatening to women who fall into the pro-choice camp. Not so much because they are afraid that their actual right to choose an abortion will be taken away, but rather that their sense of self-determination will be taken away.

The right to choose an abortion has become for them, a symbol of having the right to run their own lives as they see fit as free women and Americans.

The problem with this is that in this particular instance, "self-determination" really means "having my cake and eating it too." There is one fool-proof way to avoid an unwanted pregnancy, and I think we all know what it is. It applies to me and every other fertile woman in the world.

To equate rape with the fact that coitus can result in pregnancy is simply not accurate.

43

Tommy,

munchkin, whoa there potty-mouth.

Thanks, I almost missed that. I'm not one to censor people's views but there really is no need for rational adults to result to such profanity.

this a focus-on-the-family sponsered site.

It is? Did I receive some sort of endorsement that I'm unaware of? ; )

44

Wasn't this thread about NOW and the chick who just needs a good lay(once she turns 21)? Anyhoo, I think Larry made a half-assed attempt to cite distortions in Zell's catastrophically successful speech, something Hoots and Abigail requested, but we have not heard back from either with a counter rebuttal. Since Larry managed successfully to get us OT from the start of this thread, let me just say, LARRY, I CHALLENGE YOU TO A DUEL (smack smack).

45

"and why does cheney hate america? outsourcing all the ameridcan jobs to iraq. my school needs to be re-built. but appartently theirs are a higher priority. oh, wait, they have the oil, sorry."

'Scuse me, Tommy, but what does Dick Cheney have to do with building a new school for your community? Do you live in the District of Columbia, or are you just another panty-waisted liberal who turns to Washington to solve all your problems. Here some advice that those of us who are Americans will give you, free: you want a new school?-- vote to have your municipal taxes raised. Change the school board. Elect a new superintendant. Put a new bond referendum on the ballot.
For that matter, what schools in Iraq new rebuilding? Are you saying that our military deliberately bombed schools on their march to Baghdad?
What a lame-brain post. If we wanted all the oil over there, we could have just invaded Saudi Arabia, and started pumping the place dry. But stay tuned--that might be for 2005-6. Unless, of course, your man wins, in which case we'll just surrender and let the French handle the withdrawal and terms for us.