1

Aren't we the last western military to have a ban on gays in the military. I know the British and Israeli military allow gays in their services. They have top notch militaries like our own. Ours serve with them, so have been serving with openly gay service members for at least a decade. It hasn't seemed to cause any of the chaos and low morale that it was supposed to. Perhaps it is as big a straw man as the integration of the services after World War II.

2

"While a recent Gallup poll shows that nearly eight in ten Americans believe that gays should serve openly, the support within the military is only one in four. "

Frankly, I think our military would be a lot more effective if that 75% would leave or be forced to leave the military and go to wherever it is that they feel safe from gays.

That said, I doubt Kerry will change the "don't ask, don't tell" which allows gays to stay in the military as long as they don't make the mistake of telling a homophobe in their unit that they're gay.

3

Maybe Kerry changed his mind since this morning.

Don't worry--he'll come around again. Check back on Saturday, he'll say something which both confirms and denies his original position.

4

Larry,

Frankly, I think our military would be a lot more effective if that 75% would leave or be forced to leave the military and go to wherever it is that they feel safe from gays.

Since I would be included in that 75% you want to leave, would you be willing to take my place?

5

ll
75% would leave or be forced to leave the military and go to wherever it is that they feel safe from gays...

Be forced to huh? wow. Feel safe? Uh, what person in the military feels unsafe that homosexuals are around? Feel sick to their stomach or freaked out maybe but that isn't the same as being afraid is it?

Homophobe? What is this exactly anyway? Am I an S/M-phobe too?

6

Moderate,

Aren't we the last western military to have a ban on gays in the military.

New Zealand has a ban and Austria, Japan, Spain, Greece, Portugal and Turkey all have restrictions.

I know the British and Israeli military allow gays in their services. They have top notch militaries like our own. Ours serve with them, so have been serving with openly gay service members for at least a decade. It hasn't seemed to cause any of the chaos and low morale that it was supposed to.

I don’t know about the UK but Israel bars homosexual soldiers from intelligence and combat units and restricts all openly declared homosexual soldiers to bases where troops live in private housing. That might alleviate some of the “chaos and low morale.”

Perhaps it is as big a straw man as the integration of the services after World War II.

Integration was about a benign trait (race) while homosexuality is about a behavior. There is a significant difference between the two concepts.

7

" Feel sick to their stomach or freaked out maybe but that isn't the same as being afraid is it? "

I dunno. You tell me. I've had gay friends my entire life so I never understood what all the hubbub was about.

8

"Since I would be included in that 75% you want to leave, would you be willing to take my place?"

Why would you need to be replaced? Is there some imminent threat to the United States that requires a large US military?

9

Larry,

Why would you need to be replaced? Is there some imminent threat to the United States that requires a large US military?

Um, yes, Larry, there is an imminent threat. It's called radical-Islamic terrorism. Have you been napping for the past several years?

By the way, what size military should we have? And do oppose Kerry's call to add 40,000 more troops?

10

JOe

"Integration was about a benign trait (race) while homosexuality is about a behavior. There is a significant difference between the two concepts."

Interesting. I know from Abu Ghraib that our proud men and women like to watch each other (and others) have sex, but seriously: aren't there rules against public sex in the military (just as there are in civilian life)?

Personally, I've never seen any of my gay friends or any of my heterosexual friends have sex with anyone else (though I have had sex with some of my heterosexual friends of the opposite sex).

Seems pretty benign to me.

[Note: I'm setting aside for a moment the fact that humans choose neither their sexuality nor their race]

11

Joe

"Um, yes, Larry, there is an imminent threat. It's called radical-Islamic terrorism. Have you been napping for the past several years?"

Oh yeah! That's where small groups of people scattered throughout the globe plot random terrorist acts against civilians scattered throughout the globe. I fail to see what we accomplish by having a gigantic armed force. It would seem better to have a world-wide alliance of intelligence communities, smaller armies, and greater transparency with respect to weapons of mass destruction.

Just my opinion, of course. ;)

"By the way, what size military should we have? And do oppose Kerry's call to add 40,000 more troops?"

Gosh, I don't know. I'm not a military expert. Generally speaking, I opposed adding 40,000 more troops unless they're all going to be used to repair the electricity grid and provide clean water to every one in Iraq. Then we can apologize for blasting the crap out of their country, get the hell out of there, and start focusing on ... what was it again? Oh yeah, "radical-Islamic terrorism."

12

See Joe, there you have it, we just need "greater transparency with respect to weapons of mass destruction". All we need to do is question third world countries about their capabilities and intentions...problem solved. It's time for another PEACE DIVIDEND.

13

"All we need to do is question third world countries about their capabilities and intentions...problem solved."

Is that your plan? Damn, that is naive.

14

In related news, a girlie fight has broken out between the Commander in chief of the New Jersey National Guard, and his boyfriend on loan from Israel.

15

Kevin writes

"In related news, a girlie fight has broken out between the Commander in chief of the New Jersey National Guard, and his boyfriend on loan from Israel."

I'm not sure if that's the most accurate characterization of events in New Jersey. But I do hope that everyone realizes that the governor's unfortunate actions were the direct result of our failure to grant gays their Constitutional rights to marry.

I'm joking. Too much South Park.

16

Actually, it't not enough South Park.

"Dude. Like the guy's having sex with his secretary. And his wife is really hot. And the secretary is a guy. Dumbass."

17

Dude, did you just respond to one of my posts? ;)

18

Integration was about a benign trait (race) while homosexuality is about a behavior. There is a significant difference between the two concepts.

You're right about that. The problem at that time was the notion that white people had that they would be taking orders from officers from some inferior humanlike race known as the "negroes." That's a hell of a lot more fundamental than who someone sleeps with in their personal life.

Would you mind if the US military took a similar tact as the Israeli military did? Listening to talk radio a few months ago, I believe the Ed Schultz show, they had an arab interpreter who was kicked out of the military because his sexual identity was found out. At the same time the civilian contractors working along side of him are immune from that problem. Did it make sense to kick out someone with a specialization that we are in dire need of because he likes penises instead of vaginas?

19

By the way, my characterization of gay relationships above was intentionally overly superficial and simplistic. I figured it was about what those in the 75% of the military who don't want gays in the military envision when they picture "gay relationships." Therefore I felt it was more appropriate than describing the actual nature of gay relationships.

20

Kerry has been against the "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" policy in the past. However, he said recently in an interview with Army Times:

"It seems to me we are losing a lot of talent for our nation in interpreters, in intelligence, in a lot of different things," Kerry said in the interview. "There must be a way for those people to serve somehow."

What he is referring to is the impact on operational readiness that the ban has.

From Time magazine:

"So urgent is the Army's need for more troops in Iraq and Afghanistan that it recently summoned 5,600 ex-active duty soldiers back into uniform. But the need might not have been so great if the Army hadn't cashiered 6,300 troops for being gay over the past six years....released data last week showing that of the gay troops removed, 3,100 held jobs that are currently in demand. Those kicked out included truck drivers, medics, radio operators and combat engineers — the same kinds of soldiers the Pentagon is now seeking."

But regardless of what Kerry thinks, his position on "Don't Ask, Don't Tell", is irrelevant. There is nothing he can do to lift the ban.

It's a combination of two things, an administrative policy and an amendment to the UCMJ passed by Congress during the Clinton years.

The law states that "Homosexuality is incompatible with Military service."

However, an administrative policy put into place by Clinton said that the Military could not ask about the sexual orientation of it's members.
This does not have the force of law and can be changed at any time.

If someone is found out to be Gay or Lesbian by other means or they come forward voluntarily, then they are separated. Women are three times likely to be kicked out than men. Those that come forward voluntarily usually do so because they are being harassed and have no other options.

The current rate of separations is the lowest it has been since 1995. That is due to two things, stop-loss policies put into place, and because of patriotism, fewer Gay and Lesbian servicemen and servicewomen are voluntarily coming forward. They are willing to fight and die for a country that does not even acknowledge them.

The administrative policy put into place has been tinkered with to include ineffective anti-harassment provisions, but otherwise has been left intact, even by the Bush administration.

However it does not change the law. Given the current state of the Congress, and the fact that Gay and Lesbian people are the current scapegoat being used by the GOP to whip up the Party faithful, there is nothing Kerry can do to eliminate or lift the prohibition against Gay and Lesbian Americans from serving in the military.

So if you are looking for an issue to raise politically against Kerry for your benefit, forget it.

Never mind the fact that it is a dishonorable, disgusting, bigoted policy without a shred of evidence to back it up other than the vague fears of a few whining straight boys.

Gay and Lesbian people are in the military now, and they have always been there.

And they will continue to serve their country with pride, in spite of the fact that they are given a burden no straight person would ever accept.

I often hear lots of complaints from straight people about Gay and Lesbian people asking for "special rights".

Well in this case they are asking to be treated exactly the same as any other Soldier, Marine or Sailor.

Instead you have accepted the sacrifice of their blood and lives without respecting the individuals that made that gift to you.

And they did it to protect your freedom, including the right to freely express your prejudices.

The next time a couple of our Marines get blown up in Fallujah, why don't you go down to the corner and pick up all the body parts, torso's, limbs, etc., and throw them into a bucket.

Then see if you can sort out which one was Gay and which one was Straight.

Then you go tell their parents and families why you think it should matter.

21

Joe,

What about banning divorcees from the military? These people have made a similarly repugnant and sinful relational choice, and I could certainly understand not wanting to serve with them. They cannot watch your back or share your foxhole, can they??

DAN

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For anyone who might be interested, I have a growing list of articles on Kerry here.