February 19, 2004

Is Male Homosexual Promiscuity a Myth?:
A Response to Josh Claybourn


One of my favorite bloggers, Josh Claybourn, has taken me to task for my questioning whether monogamy was considered an important factor in same-sex marriages:

One thing that's striking about the debate is considerable ignorance by many conservatives on several levels, but two in particular.

Consider this audacious post by Joe Carter which suggests, without any substantive evidence such as statistics, that gay people are too promiscuous to handle marriage. He warns that gays may view marriage as "nothing more than a way to convey social benefits for polyamourous relationships." Joe's a bright guy with insightful views on many things, but here he sounds, well, downright simple-minded. Surely he doesn't believe in such over-generalizations. The truth of the matter is that homosexuals are not much more promiscuous than their heterosexual counterparts. Two University of Vermont psychology professors did a study comparing Vermont homosexual couples in civil unions with 1) homosexual couples not in unions and 2) married heterosexual couples. Among the findings: 79 percent of married heterosexual men felt non-monogamy was not okay, compared with only 34 percent of gay men not in civil unions and 50 percent of gay men in civil unions.

There are definitely conflicting studies, but nothing can substantiate Carter's claim to a certainty.

Before I present evidence to support my position, let me clarify what this discussion is about. Claiming that gay men may not value fidelity is not the same as claiming someone doesn't value a virtue such as courage or honor. Some values are universal and some are cultural moral norms. Sexual fidelity is a moral issue and it may be the case that it is not important in their relationships. I am still unclear whether that is the case but the evidence I’ve seen seems to show that monogamy does not hold the same place in gay male relationships as it does in straight ones.

Josh’s claim, however, that homosexual males are not more promiscuous than their heterosexual counterparts is simply without a basis in fact. The fact that he uses a study that shows that only half of the gay men in civil unions think that monogamy is important shows that he is not examining the evidence very closely. This certainly doesn’t conflict with my claim nor do any of the other studies I have found:

Few "gay" relationships last longer than two years, with many homosexual men reporting hundreds of lifetime partners. Source: Pollack, M. " Male Homosexuality," in Western Sexuality: Practice and Precept in Past and Present Times, ed. P. Aries and A.Bejin, pp. 40-61, cited by Joseph Nicolosi in Reparative Therapy of Male Homosexuality (Northvale, N.J., Jason Aronsons Inc., 1991), pp.124-25.

50% of homosexual men over the age of 30, and 75% of homosexual men over the age of forty, experienced no relationships that lasted more than one year. Source: M. T. Saghir and E. Robins, Male and Female Homosexuality: A Comprehensive Investigation (Baltimore: Williams Wilkins, 1973), pp. 56-57.

In 1978, a study done by two homosexual doctors revealed staggering statistics. Of 685 homosexual men, 589 (83%) had 50+ partners in their lifetime, 497 (73%) had 100+, 394 (58%) had 250+, 284 (41%) had 500+, 182 exceeded 1000 partners, an astonishing 26%. And 79% noted that over half their sexual contacts were total strangers. Source: Bell, A.P. and Wienberg, M.S. " Homosexualities: A Study of Diversity Among Men and Women " (New York: Simon & Schuster, 1978.)

Another large survey found that only 7 % of male homosexuals had been in a relationship that had lasted more than ten years. Source: K. Jay and A. Young, The Gay Report, (New York: Summit, 1979), pp. 339-40.

Homosexual author Seymour Kleinberg: "The prodigiousness of sex really depends deeply on change, and promiscuity is the easiest kind of change for gay men." Source: Seymour Klienberg, Alienated Affections (NY: St. Martin's Press, 1980), p. 171.

In a 6-month long daily sexual diary, gay men were averaging somewhere around 110 different sex partners per year. Source: Corey, L. and Holmes, K.K., " Sexual transmission of Hepatitis A in homosexual men," New England Journal of Medicine, 1980; Vol. 302, pp. 435-38.

A 1981 study found that only 2% of homosexual could be classified as monogamous or even semi monogamous (having ten or fewer lifetime sexual partners). Source: Bell, A.P., Weinberg, M.S., Hammersmith, S.E., Sexual Preference, 1981, pp.308-9.

Extreme promiscuity has in fact been a common occurrence among homosexual males for a long time. Back in 1982, homosexual author Dennis Altman even admitted: " now there is a move toward claiming that this (promiscuity) is part of a different, perhaps even superior, way of managing sexual relationships... (t) he assumption that it is desirable to have frequent and varied sex partners is increasingly seen as a positive part of gay life style." Source: Dennis Altman, " The Homosexualization of America, The Americanization of the Homosexual, (NY: St. Martin's Press, 1982) pp. 16-7.

According to the American Psychological Association, after the AIDS epidemic the average number of male homosexual partners only dropped from 70 to 50 per year. Source: Sally Ann Stewart, " AIDS Aftermath: Fewer Sex Partners among Gay Men," USA Today, 21 November 1984.

The 1984 book the " Gay Couple " was written by a psychiatrist and psychologist (who happened to be a homosexual couple), and they hoped to dispel the myth that "gay" couples lacked stability and long-term relationships. Rather than eliminate the myth, their research confirmed it. After much searching, they were able to locate only 156 couples in lasting relationships. The study also revealed that only 7 couples had actually maintained sexual fidelity and none of the seven had been together more than 5 years.

A Los Angeles study conducted in the late 1980s found that male homosexuals averaged over 20 partners per year. Source: L. Linn et al., " Recent Sexual Behaviors Among Homosexual Men Seeking Primary Medical Care," Archives of Internal Medicine 149 (December 1989): pp. 2685-90.

Two homosexual icons, Marshall Kirk and Hunter Madsen, wrote this about male homosexuality: " gay men aren't very good at having and holding lovers...(because) gay men tire of their partners (sexually) more rapidly than straight men." And according to them, the average homosexual male first "seeks (sexual) novelty in partners, rather than practices, and becomes massively promiscuous; (but) eventually, all bodies become boring, and only new practices will thrill. " The cheating ratio of 'married' [committed] gay males, given enough time, approaches 100%." Source: Marshall Kirk and Hunter Madsen," After the Ball," (NY: Doubleday, 1989) pp. 304-320.

In Spain, the average homosexual sexual encounters for men were 42 per year in 1989. Source: Rodriguez-Pichardo, A., et al " Sexually transmitted diseases in homosexual males in Seville, Spain," Genitourin Med, 1990; Vol. 66, pp. 423-27.

"Gay" monogamous relationships are rarely faithful. "Monogamous" seems to imply some primary emotional commitment, while causal sex continues on the side. Source: Con nell, RW. Crawford, J., Dowsett, GW., Kippax, S., Sinnott, V., Rodden, P., Berg, R., Baxter, D., Waston, L., " Danger and context: unsafe anal sexual practice among homosexual and bisexual men in the AIDS crisis," Australian and New Zealand Journal of Sociology (1990 ) 26: pp.187-208.

A three-year study in Boston found that 77% of 481 male subjects had had more than 10 partners in the previous 5 years, 34% more than 50 partners in the previous 5 years. Source: G. R. Seage III et al., " The Relation Between Nitrite Inhalants, Unprotected Anal Intercourse and the Risk of Immunodeficiency Virus Infection," American Journal of Epidemiology 135 (January 1, 1992), p. 5.

Between 17% to 54% of "gay" men continue to practice high-risk sex post-AIDS, suggesting an addictive drive. Source: Whitehead, NE., Whitehead, Bk., Submission to the Justice and Law Reform Select Committee on the Human rights Commission Amendment Bill 1992 ( Lower Hutt, New Zealand: Lion of Judah Ministries, 1993 ).

The Washington Post reported in 1993 that despite all the AIDS education for almost a decade " increasing numbers of gay men...are lapsing into previous patterns of unsafe sexual practices...” Source: Andriote, John-Manuel, " Gay Men and Unsafe Sex: Bridging a Gap Between Knowledge and Behavior," The Washington Post, August 10, 1993, Z14.

Homosexuals still have 3-4 times as many partners as heterosexuals. Source: Laumann, FO. Gagnon, JH., Micheal, RT., Micheals, S., The Social Organization of Sexuality ( Chicago: university of Chicago Press, 1994 ).

The national gay and lesbian publication, The Advocate, reported " of 600 gay and bisexual male Milwaukeeans, 73% said they've had sex in the past six months with someone they never saw again." Source: The Advocate, June 14, 1994, p.16.

A survey of 239 gay and bisexual males between the ages of 13 to 21 found that despite accurately understanding the odds of HIV infection, 63% participated in behavior that put them at "extreme high risk." Source: Ramafedi, Gary, " Predictors of Unprotected Intercourse Among Gay and Bisexual Youth: Knowledge, Beliefs and Behavior," Pediatrics, August 1994, vol. 94, no.2, pp. 163-168. Cf., Lemp, George F., et al, " Seroprevalence of HIV and Risk Behaviors Among Young Homosexual and Bisexual Men - The San Francisco/Berkeley Young Men's survey," Journal of the American Medical Association, August 10, 1994, vol. 272, no.6, pp.449-454.

Another story in The Advocate reported that although 71% of homosexual men claimed that they prefer long-term "monogamous" relationships, only 33% live with a partner, only 11% have a "primary male partner, only 8% are dating one particular person, with 87% involved in multiple dating. Source: Lever, Janet. " The 1994 Advocate Survey of Sexuality and Relationships: The Men," The Advocate, August 23, 1994.

A Los Angeles Study of young homosexual males in 1996 revealed that about 50% of those between 15 to 22 years of age had engaged in " high-risk, unprotected sex" during the previous 6 months. Source: Bettina Boxall, " Young Gays stray from Safe Sex, New Data Shows," Los Angeles Times, September 3, 1996, sec. A.

" The facts, enough gay men are once again having enough unsafe sex that the rates of HIV infection, gonorrhea and syphilis are returning to frightening heights. " Source: Kramer, Larry, " Gay Culture, Redefined," The New York Times, December 12, 1997, op ed page.

An upscale homosexual men's magazine, Genre, surveyed 1037 readers in October of 1996. Here are some of the results: " One of the single largest groups in the gay community still experiencing an increase of HIV are supposedly monogamous couples." 52% have had sex in a public park. 45% have participated in three-way sex. 42% have had sex with more than 100 different partners and 16% claim between 40 to 100 partners. Source: LaBarbera, Peter, " Survey finds 40% of Gay men have had more than 40 Sex Partners," The Lambda Report, January-February 1998, p.20.

Some men who have sex with men (MSM) may be recruiting sex partners in anonymous venues more often now than in the recent past. Source: Sowell Rl, Lindsey C, Spicer T, "Group sex in gay men: its meaning and HIV prevention implications," Journal of Association of Nurses AIDS Care, 1998; Vol. 9: pp.59-71.

Studies consistently show age differences in the sexual activities of gay men. Younger men have more partners, a greater frequency of sex, "cruise" more and have shorter relationships than older men, while older men are more likely to pay for sex. Source: Gilmore, MR, Schwartz, P, Civic, D, (1999), The social context of sexuality: The case of the United States, In KK Holmes, PA Mardh, PF Sparling, SM Lemon, WE Stamm, P Piot, & JN Wasserhelt (Eds.), Sexually Transmitted Diseases, 23 (2). pp.109-114.

When STDs are introduced into the gay community, the size of the subsequent outbreak depends on the sexual mixing patterns of the gay community, the numbers of sex partners, concurrency of sexual partnerships, condom use, and frequency of partner change which at times can be great in the gay community. Source: Aral SQ., " sexual network patterns as determinants of STD rates: paradigm shift in behavioral Epidemiology of STDs made visible," Sexually Transmitted Diseases, Vol. 26; pp. 262-264.

Judy Wieder, editor in chief of The Advocate, wrote that according to Simon LeVay, a homosexual scientist who has researched homosexuality extensively - (males) are much more interested in causal sex and non monogamous relationships. In the same article, Gretchen Lee, managing editor of Curve, was quoted that one of her female staff writers wanted to "even cruise for sex as gay men do." Source: " Do gay men and lesbians get along?” XY Magazine, July 1999, no.20, p. 77.
v


Dr. Martin Dannecker, a homosexual German Sexologist, studied 900 homosexuals in 1991 living in "steady relationships". 83% of males had numerous sexual encounters outside their partnerships over a one-year period. Dr. Dannecker observed "clear differences in the manner of sexual gratification" between single and non-single gay men that were the reverse of what he expected. Of the homosexual men in steady relationships, he wrote, " the average number of homosexual contacts per person was 115 in the past year." In Contrast, single gay men had only 45 sexual contacts. Source: Wittmeier, Carmen, " Now they know the other half," Alberta Report, 1999 06 07, p.27.

The following study appeared in the Journal of American Medical Association (JAMA) July 26th issue. A Cross-sectional survey conducted September 1999 through April 2000 with a total of 856 clients of the Denver Public Health HIV Counseling and testing Site in Colorado. 69.2% of the survey were men, 34.7% were homosexual or bisexual, and aged 20 to 50 years represented 84.1% of participants. The results show that 21.8% of those seeking sex over the internet had a history of STDs, 88.7% solicited oral sex, 41% had anal sex and 16.8% reported being sexually exposed to a person known to have HIV infection. Table 3 showed 135 (15.8%) of clients reporting that they had logged on to the internet to seek sex partners, and 88 (65.2%) of these having successfully initiated sexual contact: of those who had sex with more than 3 different Internet partners over a 6 month period was 34 (38.7%). Table 4 showed the majority of online seekers were men (65.2%), white (76.2%), and between the ages of 20 to 39 (63.2%). Also table 4 revealed that 67.7% of on line sex seekers were either homosexual or bisexual and that 76.7% meet and had homosexual sex encounters via the Internet. This led the researchers to conclude the following: Online seekers were more likely to be homosexual than offline clients and online partners were more likely to be homosexual than the online-no partner group. Finally, Table 5 reveals that online sex seekers were more likely to have had an STD and that 28.9% of online seekers reported exposing themselves to known HIV-positive partners. 63.4% and 72.9% respectively were homosexual sex encounters with 97% being oral sex and 69.4% being anal sex. Source: M. McFarlane, PhD., S.S. Bull, PhD., MPH., C.A. Rietmeijer, MD.,MPH., " The internet as a newly Emerging Risk Environment for Sexually Transmitted Diseases," Journal of American Medical Association, July 26, 2000: pp. 443-446.

Men's Health magazine reported in June that (heterosexual) men, on average, have 12.4 sex partners (in a lifetime), and have sex 1.5 times per week. These numbers may seem low to many gay men, who generally exercise greater sexual freedom than their heterosexual counterparts. But for a person who is sexually compulsive these numbers may seem shockingly low. Frequent sexual encounters may be accompanied by feelings or guilt and minor consequences. Ken (a gay man) suffers from Sexual Addiction, "It's just so much easier to have anonymous sex with someone I don't know. There is this buildup of excitement and a sexual rush, hoping the other guy will notice me...want me. After we connect, I just lose myself in the sex. It's really not about knowing the guy. I rarely even want to know his name. When it's over, I can simply walk away, " said Ken. Among the problems caused by sexual addiction in "gay" men is one of the most common of contracting frequent and/or multiple sexually transmitted diseases (STDs) ( i.e., HIV, syphilis, chlamydia, gonorrhea, etc.). Source: Shaun Bourget, M.A., M.F.T., " Sexual Addition: On a Road to Nowhere," GayHealth.com; July 26,2000.

(These quotes were taking from this source: Citizen’s for Parent’s Rights)

I have a great deal of respect for Josh and his opinion but I think he is wrong on this issue. Still, I’m open to changing my view. So I’ll withhold judgment until I see his conflicting studies.


comments
Marty writes:

1

Those of us who have been close to the gay community and have many friends there are laughing out loud at this whole "white picket fence" idea being peddled by the NYT and SSM supporters. We know the reality because we've seen it up close.

I assure you, almost all of the gays themselves are giggling inwardly, and struggling to maintain the facade...

posted on 02.19.2004 1:14 PM
anon writes:

2

What happened to my post? Does the truth get censored here? I'm really surprised...

posted on 02.19.2004 1:55 PM
Joe Carter writes:

3

Anon,

I apologize if your post got deleted. I was cleaning up old spam comments earlier today and anything that looked like spam ("online casino", "anon", etc.) I just deleted. Off hand I don't recall what your post was about but I'm sorry I deleted it.

As a general rule, I don't intentionally delete any comments unless that are libelous, slanderous, or just extremely vulgar.

posted on 02.19.2004 2:08 PM
La Shawn Barber writes:

4

You go, Joe! Knock him off his feet with statistics. I thought he was an evangelical Christian?

posted on 02.19.2004 2:45 PM
Steve_in_Corona writes:

5

Joe, Major props for all this documented work. Keep it up! I read (and comment) at Joshua's blog a lot, but fell off my chair when I read his challenge to you today.

posted on 02.19.2004 3:41 PM
Ken writes:

6

I think Mr. Claybourn got most of his information from TV. Most people's images of gays come from shows such as "Will & Grace". I would bet that Will had about the same number of partners (or less) as Grace over the course of the series.

posted on 02.19.2004 4:37 PM
Steve_in_Corona writes:

7

Hi Joe, Over at Joshua's thread on this against your view, I just pasted a blog entry by Stanley Kurtz that is on The Corner for today. You might find it interesting and an aid to your research on this topic for future discussion.

And congratulations, you (and I guess all of us like me who agree with you) are called (you guessed it) homophobes yet again. (sigh)

Why is it that if someone falsely calls another a child-molester, wife-beater or addict..it is possible grounds for a lawsuit.

When someone else throws around Nazi or Communist it is basically laughed at as being way over the top and actually a loser in the art of debate.

But using bigot and homophobe is standard and accepted language by the left against anyone who oppose even their most radical views. (Sort of like "racist" is in discussion against liberal race programs)

And I am not just speaking of the internet. I am talking Time, Washington Post, CNN, NY Times..anywhere mainstream where this discussion takes place. Just read the syndicated columns and editorial pages.

posted on 02.19.2004 7:55 PM
Hearn writes:

8

So, are you actually trying to say that just because gay guys screw a lot, they aren't worthy of marriage?

Absolutely mind-boggling.

So, by that reasoning, my aunt's ex-husband, who cheated on her multiple times, shouldn't be permitted to remarry either, right? I mean, there are currently laws on the books in most states that will prevent him from marrying his latest slut?

On the other hand, the many gay couples I know who do NOT screw around should be allowed to marry, right? Because they are in monogamous, long-term (in several cases, over 10 years together) relationships.

As for Steve's comments on throwing the word "homophobe" around; you're right, assuming that you aren't afraid of gay people (although your demeanor and comments seem to say otherwise). The word you're looking for is "Heterosexist."

The American Heritage Dictionary (1992 edition) defines homophobia as "aversion to gay or homosexual people or their lifestyle or culture" and "behavior or an act based on this aversion." Other definitions identify homophobia as an irrational fear of homosexuality.

Around the same time, heterosexism began to be used as a term analogous to sexism and racism, describing an ideological system that denies, denigrates, and stigmatizes any nonheterosexual form of behavior, identity, relationship, or community (Herek, 1990). Using the term heterosexism highlights the parallels between antigay sentiment and other forms of prejudice, such as racism, antisemitism, and sexism.

(swiped from http://psychology.ucdavis.edu/rainbow/html/prej_defn.html)

posted on 02.19.2004 10:18 PM
Steve_in_Corona writes:

9

Hearn, interesting comments. One, you said "assuming that you aren't afraid of gay people (although your demeanor and comments seem to say otherwise)." which thankfully makes my point since I have said nothing of the sort.

So let me be clear. I do not want to legislate what consenting adults do in their bedrooms, nor do I care if gay couples get "married" in any form of ceremony they desire. I do draw the line in the state issuing a marriage license to homosexual couples. This puts me in the vast majority of American citizens - meaning we ALL are homophobes (or else this is a propoganda term to try to win a cultural battle gays could never win at the ballot box)

As for your heterosexist definition "describing an ideological system that denies, denigrates, and stigmatizes any nonheterosexual form of behavior, identity, relationship, or community"

well, I guess that would include most everyone on the planet, since I am pretty sure most people have a hangup with bestiality and the like. Which is why this definition is not used to "denigrate" as effectively in the NY Times editorial page as homophobic bigot.

Finally, you asked "So, are you actually trying to say that just because gay guys screw a lot, they aren't worthy of marriage"

Answer: Nobody has said this at all. If you follow the debate in the several posts this week, you will see the concern.

posted on 02.19.2004 10:59 PM
tgirsch writes:

10

Joe:

I do tend to wonder about cause-and-effect here. Assume for a moment that gay men are more promiscuous than heterosexual men. Is this because they're gay, or is there another reason? Males are biologically driven to promiscuity (so are females, but that's a different topic for another time), but social mores (and, to a lesser extent, pragmatism) counterbalance that. Since homosexuals are already operating outside of the social norm, that influence is lacking. There's definite pressure on heterosexual males to "settle down and get married." Since the option of marriage isn't even open to gays (in most places, anyway), there's no such pressure.

My question (and I honestly don't know the answer) is that if homosexuality gained more mainstream acceptance, and if homosexual marriage became a viable option, would this actively work to significantly lessen homosexual promiscuity? It's entirely possible that it would, and if that's the case, I would think you'd support it.

posted on 02.20.2004 1:11 PM
tgirsch writes:

11

Steve:
I do draw the line in the state issuing a marriage license to homosexual couples. This puts me in the vast majority of American citizens - meaning we ALL are homophobes.

Wrong. According to the latest polls I can find, only 54% of Americans oppose legalizing gay marriage. Hardly a "vast majority." (For the record, 30% support and the remainder are indifferent or undecided.) And I'm not sure I saw anyone who equated "opposing gay marriage" with "homophobia." I believe the poster was referring to various other anti-gay comments that were made, in conjunction with the opposition to gay marriage.

posted on 02.20.2004 2:25 PM
Anonymous writes:

12

Have you considered that the desire for promiscuity leads to homosexual behavior, instead of the other way around? In that case, marriage of homosexuals will not be socializing towards less promiscuity; because promiscuity was the leading cause of the homosexuality in the first place, not social mores kicking them out of a lower-promiscuity kind of lifestyle.

Yes, there is social pressure for heterosexual men to "settle down and get married"-and that means not simply to get married, but to be 1) monogamous, 2) lose enough interest in sex that they can make a real contribution to the world. It is because marriage gives men a way to build, among other things, a satisfying sexual relationship that no longer requires searching for better and better mates that men get around to being better members of society. But to "Settle down" and get married doesn't just mean "Get married" --it means to stop being a primarily-sexual creature, whose majority of time is spent trying to get more sexual gratification.

"but men getting married to other men might mean they settle down!" Well, are they saying that? Are they already NOT promiscuous when they couple up ? Are they already monogamous? If not, why will the marriage license change that? "because marriage is defined as supporting monogamy!" well, marriage was defined for a man and a woman, too, and that's going away...so how will the monogamy hold up?

posted on 02.20.2004 5:12 PM
jack writes:

13

Any response from Andrew Sullivan? No? Gee, I wonder why not. Perhaps this challenges his fantasy that gay people just want to act straight.

BTW: I wonder if some of these same-sex marriage supporters would support the right of two straight guys to get married for, say, employer health benefits, etc?

posted on 02.20.2004 8:41 PM
writes:

14

Do you think there is any coincidence that the rates of long term relationships were inversely proportional to the age of the respondants in Saghir and Robins? Usually the younger one is the less inclined they are to have had long term relationships. Yet in this study half those between 30 and 40 had had a long term relationship in their life and only one quarter of those over 40 could claim the same thing. Could it be that the social acceptance of homosexuality throughout the 30-something's life had anything to do with his establishment of a healthy relationship? Forcing gays to be closeted leads them to have these anonymous rendevous that has led to the promiscuous culture. That and a feeling of abandonment from the community at large led to the over-sexualized culture that has propagated into the present day. Does that mean that there are no monogamous gays in life long relationships? Of course not. The odds of finding them at sex clinics, sex clubs and cruising bars is very low though. Unfortunately, that's where most of these statistics come from.

If promiscuity is the test of the rights of marriage than by definition 50% of formerly married heterosexuals shouldn't be allowed to get remarried. Similarly, of the other 50%, those that have ever had extra-marital affairs should have their marriage rights revoked. By your definition this promiscuity automatically negates any positives that a future relationship may have.

Most of the statistics you mentioned above predate AIDS and also predates the wide acceptance of homosexuality. Today we still don't have true acceptance of homosexuality, but the climate is certainly much more accepting than thirty years ago. It will be interesting to see if the homosexual statistics fall into line with the heterosexual statistics as they are seen as functioning members of the society (as they really are) rather than being seen as nothing more than sexual deviates who are told there is no such thing as a loving and fulfilling homosexual relationship.

Lastly, I need to find the actual reference to this study, but there was one done studying the promiscuity of males versus females. Random men were approached in a bar by a very attractive female. After a short period of time, a believe two hours, the woman asked if the man would like to join her in a sexual encounter. Something like 80% of the men agreed to that. The reverse was done, where women were approached by attractive men. Two hours later they were propositioned. 80% of the women turned down the offer. Imagine when you have two men, both of them with an 80% probability of agreeing to such an encounter. Does that make it right? No. Not in an age where we still have STD's. Nor would it be right if it led to infidelity. However it does highlight the fact that this has a lot to do with the problem of men being men rather than gays being gays.

posted on 02.21.2004 7:35 AM
writes:

15

I take back what I said about the Saghir and Robins investigation, although a similar one in modern times would still be interesting. The S&R study was conducted in 1973, which is culturally as far removed from the present day as you can possibly get. Why is it that the right wing refuses to use studies conducted in the 90's and early 21st century?

posted on 02.21.2004 9:17 AM
kmeson writes:

16

Do any of these studies address lesbians? The evolutionary psycology argument is that the domestic instinct comes from the woman who trades sexual rights for the protection and provision of her young. Remove the women from the equation and this changes dramatically. One other trend seems to be a reduction in promiscuity. This may be driving the demand for the civil rights associated with marriage up and leading to the current demand for SSM.

posted on 02.21.2004 5:17 PM
GayMan writes:

17

This whole Gay debate leaves out thousands and thousands of commited homosexuals. Yes, a lot of Gay men have a lot of sex. But men are men! How many "Straight" men would do the same givin the chance? You put men who like men together and what do you get? A lot of sex. Its normal for Men.Why do a lot of married straight men cheat on their wives? For SEX thay they are not having fullfilled by their partners. There is also a lot of psychology involved in homosexuals growing up in a bigoted world. Just try to imagine.

posted on 04.26.2004 9:19 PM
writes:

18

Honestly, Both sides bring up great points and something to think about. This is what makes debate so great. Learning.

posted on 05.21.2004 4:31 PM