Nick from Anti-Climacus highlights a Dean quote, from a Newsweek interview, that I'd missed:
After five straight questions about Iraq and the war on terrorism, Fineman asks Dean, out of nowhere, "Do you see Jesus Christ as the son of God and believe in him as the route to salvation and eternal life?"
Dean, belying his reputation for having a hot temper, gives a low-key reply:
"I certainly see him as the son of God. I think whether I'm saved or not is not gonna be up to me." [emphasis added]
Nick is perplexed and wonders if Dean is some sort of pelagian. "Not to suggest that HoDo's not a Christian," says Nick,"but didn't that particular controversy get cleared up pretty well by Augustine?"
To me it sounds more like the doctor is a confused Calvinist, unsure if he's one of the "elect."
We both, however, agree that Salon's Aaron Kinney is perplexed about Christianity:
"To be sure, faith is a relevant campaign issue, as is the question of whether Dean or other Democrats can connect with Christian voters, particularly in the South. But Fineman didn't merely ask if the Vermont doctor was religious; he phrased his question in a way to root out whether Dean subscribes to a particular kind of born-again Christianity." [emphasis added]
What? I must be confused because I thought that all Christians believed that Jesus was the "route to salvation and eternal life." I was starting to believe that Kinney's misunderstanding was simply another example of a journalist ignorance of religion. But then I saw the latest Barna survey:
Even perceptions regarding eternal salvation reflect confusion…although just 38% of the adult public have confessed their sins and accepted Christ as their savior, 99% claim they will not go to Hell after they die. In fact, a majority of Americans do not believe that Satan exists and most adults are leery about the existence of Hell.
What could be causing this misunderstanding? According to the Barna group, "America's spiritual confusion undoubtedly relates to the fact that most people own a Bible but few know what's in it."
Looks like Gov. Dean isn't the only one who wouldn't know where to find the Book of Job.
1
This brings up my faith as a conservative Lutheran (Missouri Synod). My denomination considers itself evangelical, but not "born again." Baptism did that once for me, thank you. But my faith in Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior could easily lump me in with the much-more outwardly Baptists, Assembly of God, and non-denominational Christians. However, tempermentally we're world's apart. Maybe it's the German-American personality present in the Missouri Synod, but we approach our faith less emotionally without the need to wear it on our sleeves.
posted on 01.13.2004 2:02 AM2
Well, Sean, only if you've "awakened" and live in daily contrition, faith and obedience. That is the LC-MS position as I understand it.
posted on 01.13.2004 9:44 AM3
"Baptism did that once for me, thank you."
Did what?
posted on 01.13.2004 10:27 AM4
The Missouri Synod is an impressive organization. I like how careful they try to be with the Bible.
posted on 01.13.2004 10:40 AM6
Rick,
I had been looking for a way to use "elect" in a bad pun but couldn't think how to do it. That's a good one. I wish I had thought of that.
posted on 01.13.2004 4:04 PM7
It could just be that I'm a Calvinist, and so any sentence with "Dean" and "Calvinist" together makes me break out in hives.
But I don't remotely think that Dean believes in a Heaven and Hell in any Christian sense. Nothing he has ever said makes me categorize his beliefs as anything other than good old New England Unitarianism. In Western MA we used to say that an independent was just an unregistered Democrat. And spiritually it seems like anyone who is a neutral "Christian" there tends to fall under the Unitarian types of belief. They were the biggest church in town where I lived, in case the idea sounds strange to anyone.
But if we were to go with the idea that Dean buys into the Heaven'Hell afterlife thing, then I doubt seriously he's thinking in terms of predestination. Jonathan Edwards lived near Vermont, but that was awhile ago. ;) More likely, he believes in the classic American "good people go to Heaven" school of thought. And his thinking is that it's up to God to decide if he's "good" enough to get in.
It could also just be a way to evade having to pin down his religious beliefs and thereby show how unappetizing to Evangelicals they really are. What he said was a good way to defuse the question. As was the generic "son of God." If you buy into the standard "we're all children of God" thing, then you can say that Jesus was the son of God with a clear conscience, and mean it with nothing like a Christian sense.
I'll add that I have trouble calling anyone a Christian without putting the words in quotes once they've served on the board of Planned Parenthood.
posted on 01.13.2004 5:54 PM8
Disco,
Great comment. I think your right. Either Dean doesn't really believe in Heaven/Hell or he thinks getting in requires being "good."
posted on 01.13.2004 5:57 PM9
"I had been looking for a way to use "elect" in a bad pun but couldn't think how to do it. "
Feel free to use it.
I am dissappointed for Mr. Dean that he has entirely missed out on what it is to know Jesus, but really grates is his attitude that he can scan through a copy of "Guideposts" and then then expect to win the admiration of your average church goer with his vast theological knowledge.
The "George Bush is not my Neighbor" quip pretty much plumbed the depth of biblical knowledge. Perhaps he thinks the "Parable of the Good Samaritan" is a newsletter for motorhome drivers.
Seriously, someone should send him a copy of the Jesus film.
posted on 01.13.2004 8:47 PM10
The un"elect"able thing is pretty punny (slap me), but Howard Dean's comment on the neighbor status of Bush and the New Testament Book of Job having (not having?) a happier ending (how 'bout revelation?????) mean that this man is DEFINITELY not a Calvinist. Sola scriptura and all.
Check out Ann Coulter's piece on this topic at www.anncoulter.com - you should have until this friday, and then there will be a permalink.
posted on 01.13.2004 9:36 PM11
Even demons confess that Jesus is the Son of God - so that part of Dean's comment means nothing, especially since he implicitly said that Jesus is not the Way to salvation and eternal life. If Jesus is not the Way to salvation and eternal life, then He did not atone for the sins of the elect. It must follow that Jesus died for His own sins and therefore must have been a mere man.
This is the rejection of the Son of God spoken of by Him in John 4.
posted on 01.13.2004 9:44 PM12
Just in case it wasn't clear...I'm was only joking about Dean being a Calvinist. His beliefs are so wacky that it's obvious he's a closet Methodist.
(Only joking, of course, please don't send the Weslyan brigades to stone me.)
posted on 01.13.2004 9:46 PM14
Yeah, in no way is Dean a Calvinist, even a confused one. I mean, he's barely rational. As Calvinism is a systematic belief system under the subheading of Christianity, I seriously doubt that Dean even knows what Calvinism is, much less believes Calvinistic doctrines. Who really thinks that he's a Christian? Who really thinks he knows what Christianity is? I think that these really are preconditions to being even a confused Calvinist.
Oh yes, I'm a Calvinist, and I suppose, like one above, I cringe when I hear "Dean" and "Calvinist" in the same sentence without an odd number of negatives thrown in there as well.
posted on 01.14.2004 2:11 PM15
I don't get it. I thought all Calvinists were confused.
posted on 01.15.2004 4:46 PM16
The whole point of being a Calvinist is being certain. This is also the downside of being a Calvinist.
posted on 01.16.2004 10:52 AM17
"The whole point of being a Calvinist is being certain. This is also the downside of being a Calvinist."
It's funny you should say that. I've found since coming into the Reformed branch of Christainity that many of the most lively and interesting discussions going on in Christianity these days happen WITHIN the Reformed world. Far from being monolithic or static, Calvinism has a wonderful diversity of opinion, and a real appreciate for free thought.
If you mean by this that Calvinists are sure they're the only right ones, I'll also point out that Calvinism takes catholicity seriously. It's the first Protestant church I've been a member of where I felt like they weren't just mouthing the word in a creed, but really saw themselves as part of Christ's Body, along with the rest of the churches.
posted on 01.18.2004 3:18 PM18
Is your implication that Catholics and Orthodox are not really Christians, because they (we) believe that a person can be damned for engaging in serious enough sin?
posted on 01.22.2004 2:28 PM