1

I agree, JD. It's difficult to be hard on a a movement that brings people closer to Christ, but at what point does it become more style than substance? I'm particularly disturbed by variances from scripture and traditional symbols of the church.

2

Excellent topic!

I have attended Willow Creek services while living in Chicago. And upon relocating to a new city, I actively sought out churches patterned after their philosophy. However, I soon found myself again seeking after realizing that an entire service would transpire without the utterance of the name JESUS. By God's grace, I've found a wonderful Baptist Church that possesses the energy and outreach of a Willow Creek, but is also biblically sound and rooted in the Word.

3

After a fashion, yes. But in the same breath, it's a bit more complex than that. Speaking as a minister in a mainline denomination, we often seem to have this monolithic view of the church and its forms of worship that existed intact from the Reformation until the advent of Vietnam and the Boomers. Then all of a sudden, people started questioning the relevance of faith and dropping out, so we started tailoring our worship to accomplish our outreach.

Nothing could be further from the truth. The church has struggled throughout its existence with the whole "new wine, old wineskins" thing. I think that the emergent church movement is a valid attempt on the part of many contemporary Christians to unhitch the gospel from modernist, post-Enlightenment categories and reconsider them in postmodern categories.

Therein lies the difficulty, for postmodernism is not really a "school" of philosophy or a movement like others that have gone before it. If I can draw the analogy of a churning stock market, postmodernism is basically the churning cultural undercurrent that has resulted from the realization that modernism and its philosophical underpinnings are structurally deficient.

As such, postmodernism gives rise to a deconstructionist mindset that questions the reasons for existing institutional structures. For this reason, em-church sounds a lot like seeker-sensitive redux, but I think there's far more to it than that.

I've probably gone as far as I should here in hogging the floor. I probably need to pick this up further at my own place. I hope you'll stop by if you're still interested.

4

In reading the Christianity Today article I can say that I'm encouraged by this trend. I've been to Day 7 at Harvest and Greg Laurie does not water down his teaching at all. Our church also does something similar to this on Sunday nights. Our pastor gives the same message as he does at the other services but it's a bit more laid back and open.

I'm finding that the newer generation is into authenticity. They don't fall for the standard feel-good sales pitch. This is not an Oprah generation that's coming and that's good.

5

Being a "movement", there is naturally going to be a lot of diversity so I don't want to lump all these "churches" into on stereotype.

My primary concern isn't so much the style of worship. We need to approach our own culture as we would if we were foreign missionaries and that requires understanding what "works." The one-size-fits-all approach to worship would be counterproductive.

Basically, I am worried about two factors: maturity and discipleship. Other than the pastoral team you aren't likely to see many older people attending these services. As Christians need to associate with other people in various stages of growth. If the oldest person in the room is 35 then the perspective will be rather limited.

The second, and most important concern is about discipleship. We are called to make disciples, not converts. That seems to be what the majority of the church has forgotten. Initially, I was encouraged by the idea of the emergent church since I thought it was a return to genuine discipleship to Christ. So far I haven't seen much of that. Maybe, though, I’m simply looking in the wrong places. I’m very interested in learning more so please keep the comments coming.

6

Good points Joe.

This really isn't a "new" issue when you stop to think about it. I remember churches aimed at the various sub-cultures around when I was a teenager. What's changed, it seems, is that now it's been formally categorized and labeled, whether it be Post-Modernism, Gen X, Emergent, or whatever.

Should we be aware of demographics (an old word for what is going on here)? Sure. Should we let demographics alter our liturgy? Not so sure.

My cousins mentioned to me that their sons attend an independent church that has no one over 35. Not good. In fact, it's downright dangerous.

Are we seeing the "fruits" of a religiously free society? I doubt that concerns such as these top out the list of church members in Sudan.

7

Good points, interesting discussion. I too am all for bringing folks closer to Christ; as a result, I'm less inclined to question a "movement" than I am individual churches and their doctrinal teachings. Are they indeed teaching something that "brings people closer to Christ?" If so, I don't really care how it's dressed.

8

Yes Bill, I'm all for programs that bring people in... aka Evangelism. My concern is that it seems that these people are foregoing solid instruction for the sake of comfort.

I'm reminded of Hugh Hewitt's chapter on tatoos in his book In, But Not Of.

9

We should be doing the liturgy because it is Biblical and right, not because it might be faddish.

The whole Willow Creek lets-throw-out-the-Word-for-Images postmodernism is the -problem- not the answer.

You cannot convert the Gospel into a non-Biblical worldview and still have it be the Gospel.

To be the Church, we must be, well, the Church. Not David Letterman, and not play-acting the liturgy without really believing that it is -true-.

Yes, we must learn to communicate the Gospel to the people around us. But not by changing the Gospel, and not by changing our service to the Lord, who is not captive to our fads.

10

Good comments. If there is a lack of mature Christians attending these events then it should be the mature Christian that would consider attending these new services to provide the maturity factor. I would ask why they should come to our way as long as the em-church is biblically based? If we can help them grow spiritually then maybe we need to go to them.

11

Yes, emergent church has become a 'seeker-sensitive' fad for the tattooed and pierced. Seeing a previous church I once attended turn 'seeker-sensitive' with a deadly combination of the New Apostolic Reformation (Wagner, Sheets, Jacobs, and Pierce), I can attest that the who object is to gather 'experiences' instead of solid, core foundation bible teaching. Emergent church claims friendship through relational evangelism but in reality, is not the sinner's true friend because they portray Jesus as this cool being with some punk rock music and a skateboard park or rock climbing wall on the church grounds instead of a savior who went to a cross to break his body for healing and shed his blood for my sins to defeat sin, death, hell, and the grave by rising on the third day.

What's going to happen when the sandy foundation of this church is exposed because the music experience and the skateboard park or rock climbing walls are no longer enough to address the inner cravings inside these individuals? Will they turn towards the Word and eat meat or will they add flavor to their 'milk' by building a bigger attraction, harder music, and call it the 'new and improved Jesus'?

12

Joe,

Excellent post. In a similar vein (though I've taken a slightly different tack), I posted a piece about two weeks ago in response to an article about the "emerging" church in The Denver Post. You can find it here.

The comments section is where my post was really fleshed-out, and thoroughly bandied-about. A very interesting topic overall, and one that the church will be forced to address at length before too long, methinks.

13

I wonder if anyone has done a comparison with the recent trend to turn education into an affair of the "relational experience" sort? Mars Hill Audio did a bit on this a couple of years ago. They discussed the growing expectation in academic circles that the students were there to teach the instructors just as much as the instructors were there to teach the students. In other words, the act of discipling, or teaching, was turned into the equivalent of a "support" group where the students were elevated, if you will, to the same status as the instructor.

Tell me how absurd it would appear if I showed up at a golf session with Tiger Woods, expecting to teach him a thing or two?

The em-church that has nobody over 35 has so for a reason... they like it better that way. The question to be asked, though, is: does their rejection of standard liturgy warrant our adjustment to their desires or vice versa?... or a little of both? It depends: If it's an evangelistic outreach we're dealing with, then I should bend; if it's a group of confessing Christians in need of teaching, then they should bend.

I've got to tell you, just shootin' from the hip, that I think tradition trumps fad any day.

14

It would be great to have a pastor that goes through the bible rather than use it as Cliff notes as does my pastor. He takes the time to get his funny jokes in. He was far more capable a few years ago than he is now. We are experiencing a continuing loss of the congregation. He has been on the road using other men's approach to rebuild the church. He has sought after and invested in expensive schemes and a new expensive program such as Rich Warren's church building program. Yes, he is off the mark. It is clear his relationship with God is suffering. Yes he continues to spend thousands of dollars in mailings to introduce the church. They don't stay. Recently for Christmas he sent eighteen thousand mailings and the gaunt and hundry are just not staying. The service offering are scant and hardly are the services real food offerings. The Holy Spirit is not going to provide a congregation to a Pastor who will only continue to serve milk and assorted pap. The bible does have a story to tell. I pray every day special prayers that he will get back with God where he once was.
He has rankled too many ggod people. And he took too much pride and bragged to much about telling others about the dedicated, the plodders and the rich he told to move on, when disagrements arose.

15

Joe asked if I'd be willing to come over and give an "inside emergent church" perspective on this whole thing. I'm glad to add my comments, but I don't want to suggest that mine are in any way representative of those who willingly embrace the emerging description. Truth is, I'm not sure it would be fair to think of me as part of the emerging church "movement." At this point I am merely working thru my own issues with the great cultural and philosophical shifts at work in the Western world (often called postmodernism) and trying to determine how these forces should shape my thinking as a disciple and as a leader. That said, I have great sympathy with those who are seen as leading voices in the conversation about christian faith in the emerging postmodern world and find myself generally aligning well with the broad notions and prominent ideas in that discussion.

I'm also only beginning now to write at all about the process I'm personally undergoing, so my thoughts are not fully developed. But, I think there may be some significant difference between what some are seeing as "emergent" and the reality of the frontiers being explored by the new ecclesial dreamers (term borrowed from James Mills at www.knowtown.blogspot.com).

There is some stuff that would probably qualify under the (perjorative?) description, "simply just a seeker-sensitive worship style for the tattooed and pierced demographic." Candles, gothic or other evocative styles, etc. as a style of "postmodern" worship is being used in some places -- it seems to me -- as just the latest methodology or strategy to bring in a specific demographic. But I believe the real "emerging church" thinking (to the extent such a category exists) goes way beyond this. It is an attempt to build an entirely new model (not a particularly postmodern word) of being church. As Rev. Mike suggests above, "an attempt to unhitch the gospel from modernist categories and reconsider them for postmodern....deconstructionist mindset that questions the reason for existing institutional structures." It might surprise some folks to know that I think one of the late modern tendencies likely to be deconstructed is the "homogenous grouping" philosophies of the seeker-sensitive movement, leading not toward churches filled w/ the under-35s, but benefitting from the great diversities which exist throughout our increasingly global culture.

I really appreciate the diversity of the comments on this page. This is an important piece of the dialogue we're all having.

Not to seem self-promoting, but I've added some links at my site (look for the "More Emerging Church Ranting" entry) that will point you toward the diversity and broader ideas expressed by emerging church-type thinkers. I hope some of you will stop by and help me contribute to this conversation.

Thanks for the invite, Joe. I look forward to reading more here at EO. Blessings to you all.

16

I must say as an LCMS Lutheran this all sort of puzzles me. Young folks like myself who want candles and incense want CANDLES AND INCENSE. Not a Pier One store. A few candles isn't going to make a mega-church experience an orthodox one.

17

I am just one little part of the Body and I come from a very colorful background. Tatooed pierced, hell's angels and skinheads. I accepted the Lord(Wondering what that still means) about 15 years ago. Well I just want to share what God's word has revealed to me. Psalms 119:11 YOUR word I have hidden in my heart, that I might not sin against you
From my experience in this walk with the Lord does it actually only seem like a walk when you eat breathe and live God's word. Evem if you don't have a church, even if you are in the middle of nowhere. God's word should be enough for us. Pleae uphold His WORD, guys.