Several weeks ago I criticized President Bush for claiming that Christians and Muslims "worship the same God." In order that I wouldn't be accused of a religious bias, I developed my argument from the Muslim perspective and used the Qu'ran for support. Josiah from Christus Victor agrees that my argument is valid but that since it contains a false premise, at least from the Christian perspective, it cannot be considered sound.
After looking at it again I realized he was absolutely right. Since Christians believe that Jesus was the begotten son of God we cannot agree that the first premise is true. As Josiah goes on to add:
The best you could get out of this argument is the conclusion that Muslims do not believe Christians and Muslims worship the same God, but this doesn't warrant the conclusion that Christians and Muslims don't actually worship the same God. After all, an evangelical is bound to assume that Islam is wrong on many points, why can't this be one of them?
Good point. So I went back to the drawing board and came up with a new argument based on premises that would be acceptable to an evangelical Christian:
1. P -- The Gospels of Matthews and John make accurate claims about what Jesus said.
2. Q -- Everything Jesus said was true.
3. R -- Jesus said that he is the begotten son of God. {John 3:16, 1, 2}
4. S -- Jesus said that you can know the Father, if and only if you know him first. {John 8:19, Matt. 11:27 1, 2}*
5. T --> U -- If you deny that Jesus is the begotten son of God then you do not know Jesus. {Modus Ponens, 1, 2, 3}
6. U --> V -- If you do not know Jesus then you do not know the Father. {Modus Ponens, 4}
7. T --> V If you deny that Jesus is the begotten son of God then you do not know the Father. {Hypothetical syllogism, 5, 6}
8. W -- Muslims deny that Jesus is the begotten son of God. (Qu'ran (Sura 112) -- "Say: He is God, The One and Only; God, the Eternal, Absolute; He begetteth not, Nor is He begotten; And there is none Like unto Him.")
9. T & W -- You deny that Jesus is the begotten son of God and Muslims deny that Jesus is the begotten son of God. {Conjunction, 5, 8}
10. W --> V -- If Muslims deny that Jesus is the begotten son of God then Muslims do not know the Father. {Simplification, Modus Ponens, 7, 9}
1
The problem is that 4 and 5 don't imply 6. If you know Jesus you know the Father. What follows from this is that if you don't know the Father, then you don't know Jesus, not that if you don't know Jesus you don't know the Father.
posted on 01.02.2004 1:12 AM2
Substitute the word "Jews" for the word "Muslims" above and you will see that this logic of this argument is not sound. The problem is that argument 6 is incorrect (as Josiah has pointed out).
posted on 01.02.2004 1:32 AM3
Substituiting the word "Jews" does not change the argument. The Jews no more worship the "same" God as Christians than do Muslims.
The only way around the argument is to believe that Jesus was incorrect and that you could know the Father without knowing him.
posted on 01.02.2004 1:35 AM4
Now the argument is valid, but not supported by Scripture. Christ doesn't say "if and only if" in John 8. Further, in the other passage you cite it says "No one knows the Son except the Father" If your argument is correct, this would imply that only the Father knows the Son, and hence not even Christians worship the Christian God And that can't be right.
posted on 01.02.2004 10:24 AM5
How about the Patriarchs and the Prophets, they worshiped the one true God; did they know Jesus? Possibly you could argue they did , as when King David says "The LORD said to my Lord (Jesus) sit at my right hand until I make your enemies a foot stool."
posted on 01.02.2004 10:30 AM6
Jesus said to the Samaritan women "You Samaritans worship what you do not know; we worship what we do know, for salvation is from the Jews."
Though her knowledge of God was lacking she was still worshiping the one true God and trusting in God's promise of a Savior- "I know that Messiah is coming. When He comes He will explain everything to us."
Could Muslims be in the same predicament? They worship the one God who created the Heavens and the Earth ( a valid description of our God), but don't recognize Jesus.
posted on 01.02.2004 10:47 AM7
Josiah,
Actually, you’ve only quoted part of the scripture from Matthew. When we take the two passages together we can combine them to get the “If and only if” premise:
John 8 -- “…if you knew me, you would know my Father also."
This allows us to conclude that: IF you know Jesus THEN you know the Father.
Matt. 11 -- “…no one knows the Father except the Son and any one to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.”
Now we can say: IF Jesus chooses to reveal the Father to someone THEN a person can know the Father.
I could have changed the premise to read, "If you know Jesus or you know Jesus and he chooses to reveal the Father to you..." but instead i’ve merely simplified it by using the “IF and ONLY IF” format.
posted on 01.02.2004 11:20 AM8
Jim,
As for your first question, I think we can base it on progressive revelation. Jesus claim only takes effect *after* he has reveled himself.
Now as for the Samiritan woman, I think the rest of the passage helps us to clarify the point:
"Jesus said to her, "Woman, believe me, the hour is coming when neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem will you worship the Father. You worship what you do not know; we worship what we know, for salvation is from the Jews. But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for such the Father seeks to worship him. God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth." The woman said to him, "I know that Messiah is coming (he who is called Christ); when he comes, he will show us all things." Jesus said to her, "I who speak to you am he." [emphasis added]
Jesus makes it clear that true worship requires worshipping "in spirt and in truth." The question then becomes, "If Jesus is the 'Truth' can anyone worship God without worshipping him?" In my view I would have to say no.
posted on 01.02.2004 12:26 PM9
Must one "know" God in order to worship him? Your arguments seem to require that one must "know" the true God in order to believe in Him and in order to worship Him. But what does it mean to "know" God?
Paul tells us in Romans 1:20 that "For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse." Paul goes on to write that "For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him". The "know" used in this verse is ginosko (G1097), which means "to know, understand, perceive". Man thus "knows" God, because through general revelation God has revealed himself to *all* of us. Thus, it would appear that we don't need to "know" Jesus in order to "know" God. And, we have no excuse for not worshipping God!
The word used for "know" in John 8:19 is eido (G1492). This is used in this verse to mean, I think, "to understand". This verse is Jesus’ response to the question asked of him by the Pharisees "Where is your father?". To paraphrase, Jesus responds: "You do not "understand" me or my Father. If you "understood" me, you would “understand" my Father also (and you wouldn't ask such a silly question!). Jesus doesn’t answer their question. He instead pretty much rebukes them for asking the question.
The word used for “know” in Matthew 11:27 is epiginosko (G1921), which means “to become thoroughly acquainted with, to know thoroughly”. Jesus tell us in this verse what it takes to *thoroughly* know the Father,
It would seem to me that those who have *not* accepted that Christ can, in fact, worship the true God. They have no excuse for not doing so! BUT, these individuals would not have a thorough understanding of God. This would only come through knowing Jesus.
The use of different Greek words for “know” suggests that there are different levels of “knowing” God. As such, it could be said that non-Christians (Muslims, Jews, etc.) can believe in the same God as Christians, they just don't know him as well as Christians do.
posted on 01.02.2004 5:53 PM10
Mr. Carter,
Even granting everything you've said, the Scriptures still say that "No one knows the Son but the Father." So if knowing the Son is a prerequisite for worshiping the Christian God, then no one can worship the Christian God except God himself.
posted on 01.02.2004 6:17 PM11
As I consider this more fully -- I come to the conclusion that many Muslims do believe in the same God. These Muslim "believers" have elected to put their faith in the God they "know" (ginosko) God from what was revealed to them through God's general revelation (this they have clearly seen, being understood from what has been made). BUT, because they do not know/understand (eido) the TRUTH about God (because they have not heard the Gospel), they accept a false understanding of God (Islam).
I don't think that there is much worth in debating whether or not Muslim's believe in the same God. It's more important to focus on getting the TRUTH out to Muslims so they get the chance to "know" (epiginosko) the Father. This can only be done by sharing with them the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
posted on 01.02.2004 7:05 PM12
Josiah -- The entire verse reads: "No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him."
Jesus can reveal the Father to whom he chooses. Thus, we can "throughly know" (epiginosko) the Father, just as does the Son, Jesus. Jesus chooses to reveal the Father to his followers (amazing!) and thus all of Jesus' followers can know God. [Note that there is no need for an intercessor! Because we put our faith in Jesus, Jesus gives us full knowledge of God.]
posted on 01.02.2004 7:17 PM13
Is it really necessary to overcomplicate this issue? Quite simply, Muslims attribute to Allah characteristics and acts that are completely at odds with with the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. The Bible warns of false christs, indicating that these types of "false gods" will exhibit certain similar characteristics to the real Christ, but ultimately they are not one and the same. The same logic should apply here.
posted on 01.02.2004 7:52 PM14
This is neat ...
The word "know" used in Romans 1:20 is ginosko (G1097). This word is the root of the word "know" used in Matthew 11:27, which is epiginosko (G1921). The difference is that the latter is used with the preposition epi (G1909). This preposition means "upon" and when used with the word "know" can mean: "to know fully, to gain or receive full knowledge of, become fully acquainted with".
Thus, while we can all know God through general revelation (according to Romans 1:20) ... to know God fully / to gain or receive full knowledge of God / to become fully acquainted with God ... all this is only possible through Jesus.
posted on 01.02.2004 8:59 PM15
The above arguments only deal with the view of the individual believer not what Muslim believer in and of their mythical “Crescent” or crusade to win converts by the sword, force or guile. Regardless, of how it is being promoted it is the object of the believed that is the “subject” not what and how errant believers choose to believe. Their God is not our God.
Islam: Myth or Truth
http://www.bible.ca/islam/islam-allahs-daughters.htm
"Daughter-gate": Allah’s Daughters: el-Lat, el-Uzza, and Manat Muslims today do not worship Allah's daughters and view them as pagan deities. Having said that, it is important to note that Muhammad himself commanded his followers offer prayers to these "Allah's daughters". He later retracted it and blamed it on the Devil. It is this true event in Muhammad's life which was the topic of Salman Rushdie's book, "The Satanic Verses." (a book we certainly do not recommend reading for its profanity and racism.)
Historical notes:
1. It is an undeniable fact of history that before Muhammed was born, the moon( The Muslim Cresent) (Baal) god "al-Ilah" Now (ALLAH) had three daughters named al-Lat, al-Uzza and Manat. The first two were even named after their father. Each daughter had a separate shrine near Mecca, where Allah's shrine was located.