1

I think that President Bush may be saying things like this to avoid "offending" Muslims or sounding "elitist." I really hope he doesn't actually believe it.

2

Be careful of using "begotten" as the basis for your argument. The Greek word translated in the KJV Bible as "begotten" is "monogenes." It does not mean "cause to exist" or "father/sire." Rather, it comes from two Greek root words that, taken together, mean "alone in existence" or "one and only." If "begotten" in the Koran means to sire (as in siring a child), then your argument is comparing apples to oranges.

3

Bryan,

You make an excellent point. The key to the argument, though, is not necessaily how the "begotten" process works but that it implies a oneness with God. Whether God "sired" a child or whether he is simply a part of the Trinity, both are considered "shirk" -- blasphemous -- to a Muslim.

4

The comments by Bush probably reflect more politics than theological knowledge. I'd wager that your average Christian wouldn't be able to properly explain why Yaweh is not the same as Allah. However, even though Bush' remarks may appease moderate Muslims, I think they might actually inflame fanatical Muslims (equating the Christian God with Allah?).

5

I would have these comments:
The very early Christians worshiped a triune God- Father, Son and Holy Spirit. The Jews thought they were polytheists while the Romans believed them atheists ie. only 3, not a whole pantheon of gods. Mohammed was influenced by Nestorian Christians living in his area. Therefore, I think the the Koran reflects Nestorian doctrine while Mohammed was a strict monotheist and just rejected Nestorian doctrine. The Prophet lived sometime after the Nicene council and council of Constanople of 381 that amended the Nicene creed to its form routinely recited today. The creed exists because Christianity has always had trouble with the doctrine of the trinity. I am always reminded of St Jerome who commented " the whole word groaned and found itself Arian." So the question is" do Christians worhsip the same {triune} God.

6

This argument doesn't hold. Yes, Muslims don't believe that Allah begot a son (and certainly not "Issa" whom they hold to be a faithful Muslim prophet). But that doesn't mean that Muslims believe that the Christians who do so, worship a different God---only that they defectively worship the True One (Allah: BTW, Arabic-speaking Christians call the Triune God "Allah" also).

We don't have to theorize about this: Muslim esteem for "the People of the Book" (Jews and Christians) is long-standing (re: the latter, even after the Crusades). Oppression of Christians and Jews in Muslim-dominated countries is a relatively *recent* phenomenon (bound up in a lot of non-interreligious factors, like post-colonial nationalism, inter-nacine Muslim v. Muslim fights, and of course, anti-Zionism).

While both Christians and Muslims believe in "Satan", only Christians have (sometimes) equated the Muslim's God w/ him.

Jews, Christians and Muslims *all* believe in "the God of Abraham." Whatever the family fight *now*, it is dishonest to re-write the family tree.

7

Mr. Fisher,

***This argument doesn't hold. Yes, Muslims don't believe that Allah begot a son (and certainly not "Issa" whom they hold to be a faithful Muslim prophet). But that doesn't mean that Muslims believe that the Christians who do so, worship a different God---only that they defectively worship the True One ***

If by "defectively worship" you mean "creating the greatest of all sins." Seriously, it is distressing to hear people dismiss the basic tenets of Islam so lightly. While Muslims may be tolerant of the "Christian error", they do not take the idea that God is Triune as minor doctrinal dispute.

***We don't have to theorize about this: Muslim esteem for "the People of the Book" (Jews and Christians) is long-standing (re: the latter, even after the Crusades). ***

I'm not denying this nor trying to make a political point by highlighting the differences in our religions. But just because Muslims have respect for Jews and Christians does not mean they believe we are worshiping the "One True God."

***Jews, Christians and Muslims *all* believe in "the God of Abraham."***

Let me bring over an argument that I used on Josh Clabourn's blog:

1. Muslims believe in A1 (the “God of Abraham”)
2. Jews believe in A2 . (the “God of Abraham”)
3. Christians believe in A3. (the “God of Abraham”)
4. A1, A2, and A3 are not compatible with each other. (Your statement that “Their beliefs may not be compatible with one another, …)
5. A1 = A2 = A3 (Your conclusion, “The logical argument you want here is A=A.”)

Let me put the argument in another way:

1. Christians believe in Jesus (A1)
2. Muslims believe in Jesus (A2)
3. Albert Schweitzer believes in Jesus (A3)
4. A1 (Jesus is divine), A2 (Jesus was born of a virgin but is not divine), and A3 (Jesus was not born of a virgin and is not divine) are not compatible with each other.
5. A1 = A2 = A3

You logic fails at either (4) or (5). Which is it?

8

I agree with your premise, and the logic seems to be correct. However, if you need to work through logical arguments like that to understand that the god Allah is different than the Christian god Jehovah (or whatever name you care to call Him), then you ain't paying close attention to the world around you.

9

1. Muslims believe in A1 (the “God of Abraham”)
2. Jews believe in A2 . (the “God of Abraham”)
3. Christians believe in A3. (the “God of Abraham”)
4. A1, A2, and A3 are not compatible with each other. (Your statement that “Their beliefs may not be compatible with one another, …)
5. A1 = A2 = A3 (Your conclusion, “The logical argument you want here is A=A.”)

By this same logic then, one can say that Christians and Jews do not worship the same God as Christians include Jesus and the Holy Spirit as a different understanding of the nature of God.

In the story about Jesus and the Samaritan woman at the well Jesus tells her that they (the Samaritans)worship what they do not know, but He does not say it's a different God that they worship.
Can not the same be true for muslims? Can they not be, as they claim, worshipping the same God of Abraham but doing so in error?

10

Hey Brian,

*** Can not the same be true for muslims? Can they not be, as they claim, worshipping the same God of Abraham but doing so in error? ***

I don't think so for two reasons:

1) The Muslims never worshipped the "God of Abraham" as the Jews and Christians conceive Him to be. Other than claiming the lineage from Abraham, their conception of God is so different from ours that to claim that they are talking about the same Being is a stretch.

2) In the example you use the Samaritans, who did not have a clear understanding the way the Jews did. Unlike the Samaritans, the Muslims understand full well the attributes claimed of "Jehovah" and reject them outright.

11

Good afternoon J.P.

Regarding the example of the Samaritans, I would point out that the woman at the well did say that the Jews worshipped in Jerusalem but the Samaritans worshipped in the mountains. That would suggest they were aware of the scriptures regarding the temple and still rejected them and worshipped as they chose. So I still think there is something to the analogy.

And again, from the Jewish perspective, they could equally argue Christians don't worship the same God of Abraham because we "add" the elements of Jesus and the Holy Spirit. So I don't believe my contention has been eliminated.

Clearly, from a Christian perspective, salvation is through Jesus alone. From the Jewish perspective it's through temple sacrifice and through the Islamic perspective it's through good works. One could still maintain that if Islam is to be considered worshipping a different God of Abraham, then the same could be said based upon the differences between Judaism and Christianity.

Regards

12

Brian,

***That would suggest they were aware of the scriptures regarding the temple and still rejected them and worshipped as they chose. ***

I would say that is reading more into it than is there. My guess is that the Jews were too rascist to allow the Samaritans to worship with them.

***And again, from the Jewish perspective, they could equally argue Christians don't worship the same God of Abraham because we "add" the elements of Jesus and the Holy Spirit. So I don't believe my contention has been eliminated.***

Actually, I would agree that, from the Jewish perspective, Christians *do not* worship the same God of Abraham as they do.

My whole argument rests on this: Is Jesus God? If He is and the other religions deny that fact then in what meaningful way can it be said that we worship the same God? I think Christians unintentionally jettison the concept of the Trinity in order to maintain a ecunumical "we all worship the same God" relationship when one doesn't really exist.

13

Joe,
Firstly, I want to be clear that in no way am I suggesting jettisoning the Trinity or anything else in the name of ecunimical agreement. There is far too much of that sort of movement within at least nominally Christian circles in my opinion.

It is possible that the Samaritans were rejected co-worship by the Jews, but that is not clearly laid out from Scripture and can only be speculation. What is clear is that they did worship differently, and that the woman at the well stated as much. And furthermore, Jesus did not say "you worship a different God", but rather He said they worshiped "what they did not know". The meaning seems clear that the lacking was in knowledge, not in which God they were worshipping.

I accept your argument that based upon the premise "Is Jesus God?" one could argue that Islam is not worshipping the same God, but the same case will argue that Christians do not worship the same God as Jews because they do not accept Jesus as God.

The crux of my point is this question, is it possible for someone to worship the same God as Jews and Christians, but do so in error? And I don't mean necessessarily just in the case of Islam. One could ask the same about Nestorians, Gnosticism or any of the other non-orthodox views. If the criteria is based upon Jesus as God, and no margin is left for worshipping in error, then I fail to see how one can claim Judaism and Christianity worship the same God.

I am not personally claiming they do worship different God, but simply that the case cuts both ways.

Best Regards,
Brian

14

The relationship between Islam and Christianity is more or less similar to that of Christianity and Judaism.

The jews do not believe in Jesus, but you believe that Christians and Jews worship the same god. Why not the same thing about Muslims?

Not only the conception of God, but also many other aspects of the religion are very similar between Islam and Judaism. In fact, in the words of Rabbi Boteach: There have been never been two religions as theologically similar as Islam and Judaism.

15

I think Brian brings up the most important issue: You cannot argue that Muslims and Christians worship different Gods unless you acknowledge that Jews and Christians also worship different Gods. Whatever argument you make about the Muslim God, cuts for the Jewish God as well.

16

I am writing to ask if someone may be able to present an analysis on an issue that I have debated with several of my brethern for quite some time...

Throughout the crusades many of the Islamic faith viewed the crusaders as polytheistic for their view on the trinity. (reference the book, "Crusades Through Arab Eyes". I was curious of this because I was raised believing that the trinity was explained like this...

There is one God who serves three roles, Father (creator of all things), Son (took human form as son of the virgin Mary for salvation), and Holy Ghost (the spirit of God that embodies all). God made man in his own image. So my father serves as one entity with three roles, a father to me, a son to my grandfather, and a spirit that dwells within.

What I am wondering is why Muslims viewed Christians as polytheistic, and if they still hold the view today? Does my view even make sense at all?

Thanks,
Jeremy

17

i am impressed by your web site.can you tell which of the christian sects who believe in one got & do not believe in trinity.i would appriciate if you email me.thanks mohammad shukoor